Why no flying in caves?

[Yarro]

Now, before everyone and their argent comes in from Vallhalla servers, please realize this isn't a "Let's complain about not flying and how stuipd the Ark devs are" thread. This is a thread for questions and theories without shouting profanities.

So, why no flying in caves?

I can see where the devs may feel that the ability to fly pteras and argents into caves should be removed, because maybe they feel that totally overshoots the challenge of a cave filled to the brim with armor munching bats, and torpor inducing everything else. I can see where they feel it should be a team effort, where you and your tibe, or allied tribes, struggle to figure out which way to go and to check and double check to make sure that you have everything before you even step foot into the cave.

but

that's not how everyone does things. Sometimes yes, players would go in and farm the artifacts. Maybe to trade to other tribes, maybe because they're trolls. With trading though, that opens up another kind of playstyle and tribe dynamic! Here's the tribe with 5 artifacts of the destroyer, and they can trade with another tribe with the artifact of the hunter. That's fun!

Or even, solo players like myself would almost need to have a flier. Not all of us are decked out for war and fighting. Not all of us have land dinos we'd want to risk bringing in with us. Not all of us have the time to have all our points dumped into fighting stats with a max lv perfect tame beast of a creature by our side, to pick up an artifact to summon a boss we may not even want to fight. This game has so many other aspects, and cave diving is only a small part.

So, in my opinion, we should bring back the ability to bring fliers in caves. It won't mess with other maps, like Vallhalla, where cave flying is a big aspect of enjoying the map; It will help solo players who may not want to take the risk of hoofing it in a cave; and it can help facilitate tribe trading and multiplayer dynamics (to some degree).

[Sipowicz]

Bump. I totally agree.

[ToXiN]

I'm a solo player and I disagree. Riding flyers in caves would make everything way too easy.
If you don't have enough time to gather enough equipment or a good dino to beat the caves, that's your business...

[76561198056880973]

I agree that flying should be allowed in caves, don't know for what reasons they have disabled it. Its not an easy thing to do anyway as you still need to kill the bats etc. Also on some caves you can't get a bird in. So they should have left it as it was as it makes the game more interesting.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=687078760

[Ruges]

It is because people would go in and farm the caves with ptera's and argents. Not for the fight. but for the loot crates and artifacts. We had a guy that would farm the NE cave twice a game day wtih an argent to pick up the red crate that can spawn there. Took him 5 minutes to go in grab the item and get back out.

[Kerian Halcyon]

This is why I feel like in the future there should be a list of options regarding the world that either allows or restricts what people can do on servers, kind of like what they did with their holiday stuff when they made it into a mod extension instead of constantly updating the whole game needlessly. This way the devs can have what they like for the official servers, while unofficial servers can have the option to add/remove whatever they want in terms of world restrictions.

[Ruges]

Originally posted by Kerian Halcyon:

This is why I feel like in the future there should be a list of options regarding the world that either allows or restricts what people can do on servers, kind of like what they did with their holiday stuff when they made it into a mod extension instead of constantly updating the whole game needlessly. This way the devs can have what they like for the official servers, while unofficial servers can have the option to add/remove whatever they want in terms of world restrictions.

The devs do have it setup so admins on unofficiial servers can set flying in caves to true.

[Kerian Halcyon]

Originally posted by Ruges:

Originally posted by Kerian Halcyon:

This is why I feel like in the future there should be a list of options regarding the world that either allows or restricts what people can do on servers, kind of like what they did with their holiday stuff when they made it into a mod extension instead of constantly updating the whole game needlessly. This way the devs can have what they like for the official servers, while unofficial servers can have the option to add/remove whatever they want in terms of world restrictions.

The devs do have it setup so admins on unofficiial servers can set flying in caves to true.

Well there you go, the more you know.

[swmark78]

No, they shouldn't be able to fly into any cave, grab the artifact and fly out in less than 5 minutes.

While Flyers are nice, they are all around game breaking. That's why you see more and more UnOfficial servers excluding them.

In theory Flyers would be good for the casual player, the one who can't spend hours and hours moving around the map and moving resources around the map. Except when it comes to movement, there is always fast travel. And no casual player will have time to tame a high level Argent, much less a Quetzal.

Flyers reward the wrong players with an "Easy" Mode. Those players that have a lot of time, who can afford to travel at ground level without that much risk. Same goes for taming, Argents and Quetzals make taming a lot of stuff way too easy. Just pick it up, drop it in a pin, knock it out with no risk to yourself, wash, rinse, repeat.

[Kerian Halcyon]

Originally posted by swmark78:

No, they shouldn't be able to fly into any cave, grab the artifact and fly out in less than 5 minutes.

While Flyers are nice, they are all around game breaking. That's why you see more and more UnOfficial servers excluding them.

In theory Flyers would be good for the casual player, the one who can't spend hours and hours moving around the map and moving resources around the map. Except when it comes to movement, there is always fast travel. And no casual player will have time to tame a high level Argent, much less a Quetzal.

Flyers reward the wrong players with an "Easy" Mode. Those players that have a lot of time, who can afford to travel at ground level without that much risk. Same goes for taming, Argents and Quetzals make taming a lot of stuff way too easy. Just pick it up, drop it in a pin, knock it out with no risk to yourself, wash, rinse, repeat.

If there is a game that lets you tame dinos and you find out that it has some of your favorite Pterosaurs like Pteranodons and you discover that you can't tame them because 'balance reasons' I probably wouldn't play it.

Seriously, this game is the closest thing to a Dinotopia game that I think I've ever encountered, if anything it needs MORE fliers rather than just the standard three.

[Ruges]

Originally posted by Kerian Halcyon:

MORE fliers rather than just the standard three.

It has 8 fliers. Quetzal, Argent, Ptera, Dimorph, terror bird, Bats, And the two flying bugs.

[Kerian Halcyon]

Originally posted by Ruges:

Originally posted by Kerian Halcyon:

MORE fliers rather than just the standard three.

It has 8 fliers. Quetzal, Argent, Ptera, Dimorph, terror bird, Bats, And the two flying bugs.

I meant ridable, but you do have a point. On that note though a way for the devs to be able to balance what swmark believes is casual play, the devs could always add some sort of flying critter that specifically targets other fliers.

It's been theorized for a while by many paleontologists that the reason why pterosaurs began to sharply decline during the Late Cretaceous is because of competition with early birds. Bird behavior as we know it today would suggest that they would have thought that the giant flying reptiles were a threat and would have attempted to mob it out of the sky. I can see them adding something like a Ramphorynchus, some early bird species, or maybe another flying insect into the game just built for mobbing fliers.

[swmark78]

Originally posted by Kerian Halcyon:

Originally posted by swmark78:

No, they shouldn't be able to fly into any cave, grab the artifact and fly out in less than 5 minutes.

While Flyers are nice, they are all around game breaking. That's why you see more and more UnOfficial servers excluding them.

In theory Flyers would be good for the casual player, the one who can't spend hours and hours moving around the map and moving resources around the map. Except when it comes to movement, there is always fast travel. And no casual player will have time to tame a high level Argent, much less a Quetzal.

Flyers reward the wrong players with an "Easy" Mode. Those players that have a lot of time, who can afford to travel at ground level without that much risk. Same goes for taming, Argents and Quetzals make taming a lot of stuff way too easy. Just pick it up, drop it in a pin, knock it out with no risk to yourself, wash, rinse, repeat.

If there is a game that lets you tame dinos and you find out that it has some of your favorite Pterosaurs like Pteranodons and you discover that you can't tame them because 'balance reasons' I probably wouldn't play it.

Seriously, this game is the closest thing to a Dinotopia game that I think I've ever encountered, if anything it needs MORE fliers rather than just the standard three.

That's not really my problem. Nor is it the Devs problem. Their problem is game balance. Which so far is something they've really haven't got down yet.

The only rationale I could see for "more flyers" would 1) you take what the flyers can do now and divide it up among more flyers and 2) even then, the flyers we have now get nerfed.

Right now the Pteranadon is both the "starter flyer" and a speed bird. The Argent is a tanky battle bird that can kill stuff it picks up, has great stamina, can pick up smaller rideable creatures and has decent carry weight. The Quetzal has the platform and can be leveled to be either a battle bird or a weight bird and can pick up all but the largest land animals. Whereas it should probably be something more along the lines of...

"Starter Flyer": something fairly low level that's not good at anything, can't pick anything up, but allows you to fly.

"Speed Flyer": something with high speed, poor at most other things.

Argent: High damage, OK HP, can pick up things a Pteranadon can now, low weight, low stamina.

Ptreranadon: Long range glider, poor attack, ok HP, can pick up the same stuff it can now.

"Weight Flyer": Flyer with decent stamina and better weight carrying that all the above.

Quetzal: Better HP than those above, better weight (maybe same carrying class as a Stego), can pick up everything an Argent can now and as the Platform Saddle. Though players should really have to pick between building on the platform and it being a weight bird.

That would double the number of Flyers in the game now and there would be room for a few more. The problem with flyers is they are too good and too generalized.

[Deadman]

Because you can cheese your way through the caves with fliers. That's why they don't allow it anymore.

[Kerian Halcyon]

Originally posted by swmark78:

Originally posted by Kerian Halcyon:

If there is a game that lets you tame dinos and you find out that it has some of your favorite Pterosaurs like Pteranodons and you discover that you can't tame them because 'balance reasons' I probably wouldn't play it.

Seriously, this game is the closest thing to a Dinotopia game that I think I've ever encountered, if anything it needs MORE fliers rather than just the standard three.

That's not really my problem. Nor is it the Devs problem. Their problem is game balance. Which so far is something they've really haven't got down yet.

The only rationale I could see for "more flyers" would 1) you take what the flyers can do now and divide it up among more flyers and 2) even then, the flyers we have now get nerfed.

Right now the Pteranadon is both the "starter flyer" and a speed bird. The Argent is a tanky battle bird that can kill stuff it picks up, has great stamina, can pick up smaller rideable creatures and has decent carry weight. The Quetzal has the platform and can be leveled to be either a battle bird or a weight bird and can pick up all but the largest land animals. Whereas it should probably be something more along the lines of...

"Starter Flyer": something fairly low level that's not good at anything, can't pick anything up, but allows you to fly.

"Speed Flyer": something with high speed, poor at most other things.

Argent: High damage, OK HP, can pick up things a Pteranadon can now, low weight, low stamina.

Ptreranadon: Long range glider, poor attack, ok HP, can pick up the same stuff it can now.

"Weight Flyer": Flyer with decent stamina and better weight carrying that all the above.

Quetzal: Better HP than those above, better weight (maybe same carrying class as a Stego), can pick up everything an Argent can now and as the Platform Saddle. Though players should really have to pick between building on the platform and it being a weight bird.

That would double the number of Flyers in the game now and there would be room for a few more. The problem with flyers is they are too good and too generalized.

The great part about this game is that it's still in Early Access, and since the devs intend to make changes before release this could probably get looked over and added to the game. The best part about the subject matter as well (that being dinosaurs) is that there are a lot of critters in the game that could fit the roles you've described:

The "Starter Flier" could be a Teratorn. It would basically appear physically similar to Argentavis, except that it would be slightly lighter in weight. As a starter flier it wouldn't necessarily be too fast or too slow, but weight would definitely be a major factor (Similar to some of the tamable dinos like Pachys). Given that flying isn't necessarily an early game factor it also could have other uses as well, perhaps as some kind of attack sidekick in a hunting party fulfilling a similar role as falcons and hawks do in Falconry (this not only gives it an extra use, but it makes it so that it doesn't become absolutely obsolete later on in the game once you have other fliers, which is a major problem with some of the other dinos like Parasaurs and Carbonemys). Other possibilities for this role could be Tapejara or Ornithocheirus.

The "Speed Flier" would be difficult, but I personally believe that the Pteranodon as it is currently should still fit this bill, it just needs changes to better fit its current niche. An easy way to get away with this is to simply include a separate genus of Pteranodon, as there were several that existed throughout the Cretaceous period with different types of crests, sizes, beaks, etc.

Argents need a facelift if/when their stats are updated. They look too much like giant crows and not enough like massive vultures like in the Dossier. And like vultures they potentially should have alternate means of being able to do damage to players; perhaps include a chance at picking up a disease due to them being carrion eaters. Likewise their habitat should definitely change to reflect this if a desert biome is ever added to the game.

Weight fliers would be slightly harder. Really what we need is for the current Quetz to be replaced by a different type of flyer that fits; Hatzegopteryx. Quetzes weren't nearly as big as they are in the game, and the largest flying reptiles in the world were big enough to tower over giraffes when on all fours. Quetzes should be made slightly smaller and more accessible and be replaced by Hatzegopteryx if we want the role of 'weight flyer' to exist in the game.

[swmark78]

Originally posted by Kerian Halcyon:

The great part about this game is that it's still in Early Access, and since the devs intend to make changes before release this could probably get looked over and added to the game. The best part about the subject matter as well (that being dinosaurs) is that there are a lot of critters in the game that could fit the roles you've described:

The "Starter Flier" could be a Teratorn. It would basically appear physically similar to Argentavis, except that it would be slightly lighter in weight. As a starter flier it wouldn't necessarily be too fast or too slow, but weight would definitely be a major factor (Similar to some of the tamable dinos like Pachys). Given that flying isn't necessarily an early game factor it also could have other uses as well, perhaps as some kind of attack sidekick in a hunting party fulfilling a similar role as falcons and hawks do in Falconry (this not only gives it an extra use, but it makes it so that it doesn't become absolutely obsolete later on in the game once you have other fliers, which is a major problem with some of the other dinos like Parasaurs and Carbonemys). Other possibilities for this role could be Tapejara or Ornithocheirus.

The "Speed Flier" would be difficult, but I personally believe that the Pteranodon as it is currently should still fit this bill, it just needs changes to better fit its current niche. An easy way to get away with this is to simply include a separate genus of Pteranodon, as there were several that existed throughout the Cretaceous period with different types of crests, sizes, beaks, etc.

Argents need a facelift if/when their stats are updated. They look too much like giant crows and not enough like massive vultures like in the Dossier. And like vultures they potentially should have alternate means of being able to do damage to players; perhaps include a chance at picking up a disease due to them being carrion eaters. Likewise their habitat should definitely change to reflect this if a desert biome is ever added to the game.

Weight fliers would be slightly harder. Really what we need is for the current Quetz to be replaced by a different type of flyer that fits; Hatzegopteryx. Quetzes weren't nearly as big as they are in the game, and the largest flying reptiles in the world were big enough to tower over giraffes when on all fours. Quetzes should be made slightly smaller and more accessible and be replaced by Hatzegopteryx if we want the role of 'weight flyer' to exist in the game.

Sources on how big the Quetzal was seem to differ. Some have it smaller, some have it ranging up to what is seen in the game.

Though I would add the Pelagornis somewhere in there. Maybe long range flyer? Maybe as the starter flyer? It's a sea bird so it would be reasonably found on the coast.