A civil discussion on the strength of the Griffin

[Eminence]

Like the title says, I'd like to have a civil discussion on whether the Griffins strength needs adjusting.

Discussing my opinion on the matter I'd like to start with what I think is the Griffins biggest weakness, which is it's low stamina. Having such a low stamina means a lot of points pumped there, or a very low endurance bird. I don't think any flyer should have such low endurance, as anything that can fly would need natural endurance to survive. That being said I'm aware that it's a game and they do not always match what we conceive should be according to reality.
The second weakness is the inability to breed them. Lacking the ability to mesh together tames with high natural stats, and then imprint on them, drastically reduces the potential of the Griffin.
The final weakness is it's lack of a saddle or armor. Even though it has a high health pool it is very susceptible to focus fire.

Moving on to their strengths. The biggest strength of the Griffin is their dive ability. Although it may (I'm not sure on this small aspect) be slower than a Wyvern in straight flight it's ability to dive and outrun anything can be used in both offensive and defensive manuvering.
The second big strength is it's ability to attack while diving. This 'Sky claw' attack is the single most damaging creature attack in the game. Even weak Griffins are able to hit for almost 1k with this attack. Add on top of this damage a massive AoE that easily dwarfs the attack range of any similar sized creature and you have an easy to use flying mininuke.
The third strength I'd like to talk about is allowing the rider to shoot from it's back. While this has limited use in PvP it makes for an easy knockout on any creature in the game. Removing a little bit of the effort on PvE. Taking in to account that many unofficials run boosted taming, this removes the only obstacle left in taming: the knockout.
Additionally the Griffin can carry a passenger, walk and fly backwards, and it's an easy early tame for anyone with experience. All you need is a bow and a lot of tranq arrows and narcotics.

Now I don't want to see this creature nerfed into Oblivion, and with it's current mechanics that's the only way I see to prevent them from being overly powerful. What I would suggest if a total rework if the Griffin to bring it's abilities in line with the rest of the Ark world.

1. Increase it's base stamina
2. Completely remove the dive attack, but keep the ground pound. Increase the damage to be more in line with the current dive claw, but apply a 'dazed' debuff to the Griffin. It cannot take off for 1.5-2 seconds. Short enough to not be a guaranteed death sentence, but long enough to make you be wary of using it's power. Reduce it's AoE and prevent it from reaching through walls/ceilings.
3. Reduce it's flat flying speed, but keep the dive speed. This keeps other flyers a little more competitive when it comes to speed, but maintains the Griffin's superiority.
4. Decrease the AoE of normal attacks. Standing still the Griffin can hit things that are far away, and sometimes even behind it (although this could be a glitch in my game)
5. Increase it's normal attacks damage to allow it to be useful in limited situations and not rely so heavily on its diving mechanic for all combat.
6. Disable the drivers ability to shoot while mounted if the Griffin is in the air, but maintain the ability on the ground.
7. Add a saddle that has a low armor rating (10?) and high level craft (preferably in the fabricator using polymer)
8. Allow a passenger only with the saddle, but allow them to rotate 360° when firing.

I know many people will disagree with me on these points, and I encourage you to tell me with what points, and why. Please do so with respect to all others in the thread.

TL;DR I don't like the Griffin's balance and would like to discuss changing it, even though my ideas are likely never to be implemented, or considered, by WC.

[Serangel]

I'de say leave the griffin as it currently is, lower the damage and range of the AOE and make it where when it does a dive, there is a short time before it can sprint or take off again.

[ToXiN]

It's dive damage is just way too high. That's the main problem with griffins imo.

[Frostbringer]

How does a bear trap/large metal dino trap/ poison torpor trap behave if a griffin dive bombs into it?

[Serangel]

Originally posted by Jack Frost:

How does a bear trap/large metal dino trap/ poison torpor trap behave if a griffin dive bombs into it?

I would imagin a large bear trap would trap it for a certain amount of time. A single poison trap probly would knock out a high level one alone, It might reach the rider though.

[Frostbringer]

Originally posted by Serangel:

Originally posted by Jack Frost:

How does a bear trap/large metal dino trap/ poison torpor trap behave if a griffin dive bombs into it?

I would imagin a large bear trap would trap it for a certain amount of time. A single poison trap probly would knock out a high level one alone, It might reach the rider though.

Yeah,

I'm curious since i haven't PVPed for awhile and wonder if players have tried thinking outside the box and tried in-game assets that people tend to forget being available.


If this works, It would be a direct counter to a griffin dive bomb by baiting it into an attack, and then severely wounding it/killing it while trapped.

I remember the days before grapples and harvesting could be turned off, carrying stone on both myself and my mount, and having birds stuck after trying to pick me off, or having the attacking dinos stuffed full of rocks and immobile after eating my mount.

Too often, new players see how PVP is done on a popular stream, and stop thinking of alternative counter-measures.

[Serangel]

I kind of agree, but on another note, if you are just tameing or gathering or what ever and a griffin slams down and one shots you, not much you can really do.

[Digital Aura]

You have some valid points, but I don't feel it's OP -- at least not in the unofficial, modded servers where classic flyers reign supreme.
I support the idea of tweaking the griffin but not directly touching his stats.

Here's some thoughts:

1/ Perhaps adding a bit of fall damage to the griffin as a sacrifice to using the attack too much.

2/ or adding a chance of falling off the griffin if it hits the ground that hard.

3/ Or, with the amount of g-force, perhaps consider a torpor hit to the rider where 'too many' consecutive dives would render unconsciousness.

4/ Possibly take the AOE element and make only single targets susceptible to his dive.

[Monty]

Originally posted by Eminence:

Like the title says, I'd like to have a civil discussion on whether the Griffins strength needs adjusting.

Discussing my opinion on the matter I'd like to start with what I think is the Griffins biggest weakness, which is it's low stamina. Having such a low stamina means a lot of points pumped there, or a very low endurance bird. I don't think any flyer should have such low endurance, as anything that can fly would need natural endurance to survive. That being said I'm aware that it's a game and they do not always match what we conceive should be according to reality.
The second weakness is the inability to breed them. Lacking the ability to mesh together tames with high natural stats, and then imprint on them, drastically reduces the potential of the Griffin.
The final weakness is it's lack of a saddle or armor. Even though it has a high health pool it is very susceptible to focus fire.

Moving on to their strengths. The biggest strength of the Griffin is their dive ability. Although it may (I'm not sure on this small aspect) be slower than a Wyvern in straight flight it's ability to dive and outrun anything can be used in both offensive and defensive manuvering.
The second big strength is it's ability to attack while diving. This 'Sky claw' attack is the single most damaging creature attack in the game. Even weak Griffins are able to hit for almost 1k with this attack. Add on top of this damage a massive AoE that easily dwarfs the attack range of any similar sized creature and you have an easy to use flying mininuke.
The third strength I'd like to talk about is allowing the rider to shoot from it's back. While this has limited use in PvP it makes for an easy knockout on any creature in the game. Removing a little bit of the effort on PvE. Taking in to account that many unofficials run boosted taming, this removes the only obstacle left in taming: the knockout.
Additionally the Griffin can carry a passenger, walk and fly backwards, and it's an easy early tame for anyone with experience. All you need is a bow and a lot of tranq arrows and narcotics.

Now I don't want to see this creature nerfed into Oblivion, and with it's current mechanics that's the only way I see to prevent them from being overly powerful. What I would suggest if a total rework if the Griffin to bring it's abilities in line with the rest of the Ark world.

1. Increase it's base stamina
2. Completely remove the dive attack, but keep the ground pound. Increase the damage to be more in line with the current dive claw, but apply a 'dazed' debuff to the Griffin. It cannot take off for 1.5-2 seconds. Short enough to not be a guaranteed death sentence, but long enough to make you be wary of using it's power. Reduce it's AoE and prevent it from reaching through walls/ceilings.
3. Reduce it's flat flying speed, but keep the dive speed. This keeps other flyers a little more competitive when it comes to speed, but maintains the Griffin's superiority.
4. Decrease the AoE of normal attacks. Standing still the Griffin can hit things that are far away, and sometimes even behind it (although this could be a glitch in my game)
5. Increase it's normal attacks damage to allow it to be useful in limited situations and not rely so heavily on its diving mechanic for all combat.
6. Disable the drivers ability to shoot while mounted if the Griffin is in the air, but maintain the ability on the ground.
7. Add a saddle that has a low armor rating (10?) and high level craft (preferably in the fabricator using polymer)
8. Allow a passenger only with the saddle, but allow them to rotate 360° when firing.

I know many people will disagree with me on these points, and I encourage you to tell me with what points, and why. Please do so with respect to all others in the thread.

TL;DR I don't like the Griffin's balance and would like to discuss changing it, even though my ideas are likely never to be implemented, or considered, by WC.

I personally don't hate where the Griffin is mechanically. I feel that it can be tweaked to tone down it's dominance, but I don't think it needs more than a tweak.

Before I offer my tweak, I'll offer my input on your tweaks.

1. I don't feel like it's stamina is that low, it seems to be the same as any other flyer.

2. I don't think taking away the griffin's defining feature. The whole purpose of the Griffin is hit and run, it what makes it interesting.

3. It's base flight speed is already slow. Maybe a little faster than an Argent.

4. Yes, the cone needs to be smaller and more defined, but that can be said for a lot of dinos.

5. Again, this is the Griffin's trope, it's defining factor. It doesn't need to be like other flyers.

6. This is less of a factor, but I don't think it needs to be limited to ground only because it won't really change anything substantially in balance. It would only hurt it's none PvP utility.

7. Possibly, if only to limit early accessibility. Though then we have to confront the balance between low level to high levels again. Having a saddle as a limiter is good though.

8. This is another meh point, not really something that makes the Griffin strong.

Ok, so here are my only real issues with the griffin. It has too much HP for what it is and it is a little too easy to acquire.

The griffin is simple and that's good, it just needs minor tweaks to tone down it's strength. Taking away it's damage removes it's main trope of being a dive bomber. However, dropping it's absurd HP to more of an argents HP still makes it semi-tanky, but not a bronto with wings. This would also make the popular griffin bomb less viable as well.

I'd say add a saddle for a high level, like 86-88, normal 25 armor, make it's BP drop rate very low and drop it's HP to a base 500-600. With these changes, I feel the griffin will be in a more stable position. Just my opinion though.

EDIT: By the way, the griffin's dive swipe doesn't do more than a full Rhino charge.

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Digital Aura:

You have some valid points, but I don't feel it's OP -- at least not in the unofficial, modded servers where classic flyers reign supreme.
I support the idea of tweaking the griffin but not directly touching his stats.

Here's some thoughts:

1/ Perhaps adding a bit of fall damage to the griffin as a sacrifice to using the attack too much.

2/ or adding a chance of falling off the griffin if it hits the ground that hard.

3/ Or, with the amount of g-force, perhaps consider a torpor hit to the rider where 'too many' consecutive dives would render unconsciousness.

4/ Possibly take the AOE element and make only single targets susceptible to his dive.

This has some great ideas. I would also suggest garanteed turret hits. If u dive into a base just insure the turrets hit the griffin at least.

[Kblocks]

griffin isn't even a dinosaur

[123]

In my opinion, griffins should be unable to take off for a few seconds after diving bombing. Their is no reason this tame should have such potent damage capabilities when it already has so much utuility.

[Eminence]

I don't have time for a full response right now, but I'll say just one counter point real quick to Monty

Originally posted by #Monty:

3. It's base flight speed is already slow. Maybe a little faster than an Argent.

The speed of the Griffin is deceptive. Unless you are referring to playing with classic flyers, as I don't. And while I acknowledged that a large number of people play unofficial I don't think that it should be a heavy influence on a creatures balance. That being said, go to an official speed server and have two players drop all weight so both birds are unencumbered. Have one for a pteranodon and one fly a Griffin. No diving just a straight flight. See who wins. The camera angle can make you feel like you're moving slower when in fact the Griffin has a very high base speed.

I tried to look up the base speeds on the wiki, but it doesn't appear to have a listing for the pteranodon.

[Kraken:1]

The Griffin when released had an absolutely great counter balance to the dive. Diving hurt the rider, diving too much would kill you. It was an incentive to not rely completely on diving all the time to kill everything that moved, and made it more of a get out of a pickle dire straits type move. Everyone complained about it and it got removed completely.

[Monty]

Originally posted by Eminence:

I don't have time for a full response right now, but I'll say just one counter point real quick to Monty

Originally posted by #Monty:

3. It's base flight speed is already slow. Maybe a little faster than an Argent.

The speed of the Griffin is deceptive. Unless you are referring to playing with classic flyers, as I don't. And while I acknowledged that a large number of people play unofficial I don't think that it should be a heavy influence on a creatures balance. That being said, go to an official speed server and have two players drop all weight so both birds are unencumbered. Have one for a pteranodon and one fly a Griffin. No diving just a straight flight. See who wins. The camera angle can make you feel like you're moving slower when in fact the Griffin has a very high base speed.

I tried to look up the base speeds on the wiki, but it doesn't appear to have a listing for the pteranodon.

If that's true, then I agree with nerfing it's base movement speed. Little faster or the same speed as an argy, hell. That would also be a slight nerf to the dive as well due to the ascent not being as fast in some scenarios.

[Monty]

Originally posted by Kraken:1:

The Griffin when released had an absolutely great counter balance to the dive. Diving hurt the rider, diving too much would kill you. It was an incentive to not rely completely on diving all the time to kill everything that moved, and made it more of a get out of a pickle dire straits type move. Everyone complained about it and it got removed completely.

It was too excessive, the griffin's dive isn't the problem, it's the safety of having high HP that removes the risk. Reduce a griffins HP and then all it is, is a hit and run glass cannon. The only the other tweak I'd suggest, is that every time it swipes, it should lose a level of it's gale force speed.