People should stop calling offline raiding/wiping PvP.....

[Bobbeh]

Seriously though, offline raiding although a legit tactic is not PvP (player vs player), its PvStructures & AI... If the studio wanted to encourage actual PvP they would make it so that you couldnt destroy structures in a single pass. They would have to be attacked then attacked again at a set time (set partially by the defender and random chance).

I played eve for many years so lets call this a 'reinforcement timer'.... So the invaders come to your server while you're sleeping and attack all your bases. now these bases cannot snap structures anymore and cannot be repaired (lets say structures take 50% before they become locked). How ever they are now invulnerable for a fixed amount of time (lets call that x) and the defending tribe gets to pick a window of time they defend all their structures at. The reinforcement timer would then be the a random time inside that time window + x (which is 1-4 hours).

This type of system would mean that you could not be eradicated in a single night without a chance to defend. It would also mean that attackers had to actually fight people not just AI and structures. Yes it would limit raiding unfortunately but i cannot see a way around that... except maybe (going with eve again) there was a set material (like element) that was required to power the 'reinforced timer'. If this material was not fill then the base would not go into invulnerability, it would be immediately destructible.

At the end of the day the problem with Ark official PvP is that very little actual PvP goes on... and alot of offline wiping and chest beating happens...

[Illiaz]

Literally all of these threads are broken record Garbo. You just want what's convenient for you or suits you. What about people who work graveyard shifts? Or anyone else who plays off prime time? Should they be SOL for raiding and PvP because no one else is on? Guess they better just drop out of school or get a new job to cater to how you prefer to PvP in a game. Game world is persistent. Deal with it. Build your base better that's what you do.

[Bobbeh]

As Darrel said, what takes a week to farm (defenses wise) falls in minutes. It doesnt matter how many turrets you have or how many bullets are inside them... A couple guys and a quetz can blow a hole straight through the top.... So you build at the top of volcano so they cant get above, well now they can just use quetzals and gallis to basically tera bomb you without the tera's.... So you double wall and make sure you have no visible weakspots and no behemouth gates and you use an elevator to get in and out of your base. well then they will just stop themselves under the ground and rocket your foundations.... But you double foundationed... well then double the rockets required....

But you've done all of that and they cant get under the map. well you see they will just slowly march up bullet sponges, expecting them to die until they can get a golem next to the wall and either block the turrets for a player to rocket or just nose through the wall and throw a rock at your wires..... cause you see if you turn your render down to low, you can see the generator and all the wires before the base ever loads so now youre not guessing where you need to attack you know exactly where.

So if youre online and you have a decent base you stand a chance at defense. This is why the majority of the community offline raids.... because its low risk high reward

[Bobbeh]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Illiaz:

Literally all of these threads are broken record Garbo. You just want what's convenient for you or suits you. What about people who work graveyard shifts? Or anyone else who plays off prime time? Should they be SOL for raiding and PvP because no one else is on? Guess they better just drop out of school or get a new job to cater to how you prefer to PvP in a game. Game world is persistent. Deal with it. Build your base better that's what you do.

Not at all, The system doesnt screw anyone. It simply would provide both the attacker and the defender the opportunity to chose which timezone was best for them to fight. The attackers get the initial chose, the defenders get to choose the time to defend or die... now it cant be a perfect decision because then there is no chance the attackers can win thats why you put a random element in there so even if they pick there perfect up time it may roll earlier or later than the peak...

The irony in what your saying is tangible... because the current system favors the people with odd sleep schedules compared to their community. They have the freedom to raid at will with very little defense....Which means you just want to maintain the status quo because it favors you currently....

[devilkingx2]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Darrel Boxar:

There is absolutely no way to defend yourself from an equally geared, and sized, tribe.

Your post falls apart when you simply look at the state of Ark PvP on a larger scale. There is no adequate defense. Hence the everyone always raids servers, which results in large scale wiping of most of the tribes that aren't large enough to constantly wipe new servers to establish themselves on.

Your post would be a little more accurate if they had a balanced state of Attack vs Defense, but unfortunately, every advantage in a fight lies solely on the attackers side. Thus why Offline Raiding is such a big issue in this game.

In most games it takes more time to build the resources to raid a base, then it does to build a base that's being raided. In this game, it's the exact opposite, to such a degree that it's almost laughable.

umm what are you talking about? have you seen the base of a large tribe?

it takes like 7 c4 or 5 rockets to destroy a single metal wall, a single metal wall costs 25 metal and 7 cementing paste, that's a small fraction of what the rockets and c4 cost. not to mention you can build metal walls at like level 30 and you can't build rockets until like level 60

it's far easier to defend against a raid than it is to raid, unless you're on a server where every tribe is small or where the rates are way too low for anyone to build a decent base

building a base from scratch costs a lot and takes far longer than it does to build the resources to raid a base, but once your base is setup it takes an enormous amount of resources to crack a well made base

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 👽💀👽💀👽💀*YYC_Bobbeh*👽💀👽💀👽💀:

The open warzone is a fine comparison but the problem is destruction in ark currently is monumentally easier than taming and construction. Even the best base can be raided with ease if noone or one person is online.

how is it easier to raid a base than it is to build a base?

[Bobbeh]

Devil, with any kind of infrastructure at all you can pump out 100's of rockets a day.... (Snails help alot)

and with an ascendant launcher that 7 -8 rockets per wall drops to 1-3

furthermore with turtles being a day to breed and raise..... its not hard once you get the genetics in place to mass produce bullet sponges

[Bobbeh]

In the time it takes me to farm a 10 by 10 by 10 metal base i could have made 50 rockets.... which could easily raid it and leave it empty

Not to mention the time required to make an indi forge... chem bench.... turrets bullets wires generator......

[Bobbeh]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Silky Rough:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 👽💀👽💀👽💀*YYC_Bobbeh*👽💀👽💀👽💀:

Not at all, The system doesnt screw anyone. It simply would provide both the attacker and the defender the opportunity to chose which timezone was best for them to fight.

ROFLMAO. Eve zero my ass. When dafuq did a POS owner ever get to pick the TZ?

Using the TZ is and always has been a valid offense, specifically for soloists. You not being there is the whole idea. YOU mitigate by cross TZ recruiting.

Are you serious?? you never took out some stront to make sure the pos didnt go max timer and instead came out in your timezone? You know there was pos planners that helped you with the calculations too..... literally as easy as taking out some stront to reduce the reinforced timer from max to w.e was needed to land in the middle of your tz. plus or minus the time to RF it


That was like 0.0 beginners class... like seriously http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/POS_Warfare

Never online a tower without putting at least a few hours of Strontium Clathrates in the stront bay. Common recommendations are to put 8-16 hours worth in or 30-40 hours in. The goal is to shift the timer around so that it likely falls during your enemy's off-peak time. You should also have additional Strontium Clathrates available nearby that you can re-fill the bay after repairing the shields.
Small: 100/hr, 4166 max units for 41.7 hours
Medium: 200/hr, 8333 max units for 41.7 hours
Large: 400/hr, 16666 max units for 41.7 hours

[devilkingx2]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 👽💀👽💀👽💀*YYC_Bobbeh*👽💀👽💀👽💀:

Devil, with any kind of infrastructure at all you can pump out 100's of rockets a day.... (Snails help alot)

and with an ascendant launcher that 7 -8 rockets per wall drops to 1-3

I've never seen a snail, so you have to take into account the amount of time it would take for them to find a snail

the best rocket launcher I've ever seen came from a red drop and it was apprentice with like 130% damage (lost it in a raid), don't forget to take into account how long it would take to raid caves and underwater drops to find an ascendant launcher

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 👽💀👽💀👽💀*YYC_Bobbeh*👽💀👽💀👽💀:

In the time it takes me to farm a 10 by 10 by 10 metal base i could have made 50 rockets.... which could easily raid it and leave it empty

well yeah, but if a base that big only requires you to blow through like 2 walls to get all the loot it's poorly designed.

my old tribe had a base entirely made of metal that would require you to blow through like 5 metal walls, find the hidden vault(through a metal trapdoor, down a ladder), blow through the metal windowframe around the vault, then destroy the vault itself, and none of that is taking into account the numerous auto turrets all over the base

so a sufficiently large base that is also decently designed will take at least 100 rockets to get through even if everyone is offline.

size alone doesn't mean much unless it comes with good design.

https://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/307fr1/base_tips_honeycombs_airlocks_elevators/

[Bobbeh]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από devilkingx2:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 👽💀👽💀👽💀*YYC_Bobbeh*👽💀👽💀👽💀:

Devil, with any kind of infrastructure at all you can pump out 100's of rockets a day.... (Snails help alot)

and with an ascendant launcher that 7 -8 rockets per wall drops to 1-3

I've never seen a snail, so you have to take into account the amount of time it would take for them to find a snail

the best rocket launcher I've ever seen came from a red drop and it was apprentice with like 130% damage (lost it in a raid), don't forget to take into account how long it would take to raid caves and underwater drops to find an ascendant launcher

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 👽💀👽💀👽💀*YYC_Bobbeh*👽💀👽💀👽💀:

In the time it takes me to farm a 10 by 10 by 10 metal base i could have made 50 rockets.... which could easily raid it and leave it empty

well yeah, but if a base that big only requires you to blow through like 2 walls to get all the loot it's poorly designed.

my old tribe had a base entirely made of metal that would require you to blow through like 5 metal walls, find the hidden vault(through a metal trapdoor, down a ladder), blow through the metal windowframe around the vault, then destroy the vault itself, and none of that is taking into account the numerous auto turrets all over the base

so a sufficiently large base that is also decently designed will take at least 100 rockets to get through even if everyone is offline.

size alone doesn't mean much unless it comes with good design.

https://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/307fr1/base_tips_honeycombs_airlocks_elevators/

Best launcher ive seen is 600% damage from a fishing blueprint and snails are pretty easy to find around the swamp and in the caves....


You are correct honeycombing is annoying but thats why most raiders use low render to see exactly where the vaults, generators turrets and such are inside the base before they start hitting it....

[Bobbeh]

Any mechanic that allows a single defender the ability to time the defense at all would allow for it... Just like in eve, so one player online could essentially give you the chance to get your base to come out in your TZ.... just like in eve........... Man when did trolls become so limited...

i'll slow it down for you...

The original post isnt about looking for ORP servers its talking about how all pvp servers need some form of mechanic similar to ORP.

ORP is not the answer because it basically makes your base invincible from any type of assault as long as youre not online. That is not at all what i was recommending. Just a simple 2 timer system where the defender could have some input in when their base becomes vulnerable again...

You see ORP is not a two attack system, it does not have any kind of randomness to it. On ORP servers you can only attack when the enemy is online. What im proposing, allows the attackers to attack in their prime, and if noone is online to defend the base could become vulnerable in their timezone as well. But at least the defender has the chance to try and mount a defense. The current system does not provide the defender any chance to defend... If your online great, if your not... wiped..

[rpgmomma8404]

There are servers that don't allow offline raiding. Maybe go play on one of those? or I don't know maybe build a better base.

[Tango-Osmo]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Silky Rough:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Aldo:

Even less with the whole thing gone

The game has multiple lines of defense. Most people that post these kinds of thread simply don't know what they are or think they shouldn't need to learn them. They should start by getting to know - and making friends with - existing tribes. Help them out while learning the mechanics and stockpiling. Making their tools/weapons on tribe equipment etc. etc.

Then you can build *after* - with friends watching your back. Until then, what's to defend? What's to lose? Alternatively, keep building, keep getting smashed and perhaps, just perhaps... you'll learn something along the way.

Ark is an active warzone with no rules - as it should be. All the mechanics are there if they are used. People just need to stop thinking PvP means 2 boxers standing around while the ref reads the rule book before ringing the bell.

Lol, you clearly don't know anything about pvp in this game. There is no lines of defense in game at all. There is no structure or game mechanics to prevent or even make raiding more difficult when offline...

Every base, no matter how many turrets you got, how thick walls you have, how many dinos you have is raidable with in 2-4 hours of offline time.

[Lost Frog]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από devilkingx2:

umm what are you talking about? have you seen the base of a large tribe?

Yep. I live in bases with hundreds of turrets, with literally millions of bullets. It's how I know exactly how weak they are against people who have resources and time equivalent to mine.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από devilkingx2:

it takes like 7 c4 or 5 rockets to destroy a single metal wall, a single metal wall costs 25 metal and 7 cementing paste, that's a small fraction of what the rockets and c4 cost. not to mention you can build metal walls at like level 30 and you can't build rockets until like level 60

Rockets and C4 aren't the expensive part. Neither are Walls.

The actual relevant part of the discussion is Bullets vs Turtles. One is gathered at a linear rate. The other grows at an exponential rate.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από devilkingx2:

it's far easier to defend against a raid than it is to raid, unless you're on a server where every tribe is small or where the rates are way too low for anyone to build a decent base

It's easier in the sense that "Well, I can't do anything to stop this, so I guess this base is gone. time to Evac". It is easy in the sense that you will get buried if you defend, as opposed to attack.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από devilkingx2:

building a base from scratch costs a lot and takes far longer than it does to build the resources to raid a base, but once your base is setup it takes an enormous amount of resources to crack a well made base

Oh. It does. However it will take you literally an enormous amount more resources to defend the base then it would be to attack them.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 👽💀👽💀👽💀*YYC_Bobbeh*👽💀👽💀👽💀:

how is it easier to raid a base than it is to build a base?

Here's an exercise.

How many Bullets can your tribe make in a day?

I'll tell you how many I can soak, in a general manner.

When at war, I can, solo (Without any tribe mates helping me), breed around 150-200 turtles per clutch. These turtles come out with about 9k base health. When they go on raid, they're somewhere around 15-20k health. They take about 20% damage, due to passive mitigation, from bullets.

So let's do math;

15,000 (Health on turtles)
150 (Turtles per clutch)
2,250,000 (Health in Turtles)
11,250,000 (Effective Health before Saddles)
22,500,000 (Effective Health After Saddles)
Auto Turrets do 154 Damage per Shot
146,103 Bullets to kill all of these turtles, with the "Low" of what I hatch on a regular basis, 25 Armor saddles and less then 20 levels in Health on said turtles.

Now, the fun part is, if I *need* more turtles, I can do it. I have about 400 turtles in my front lawn. I get about 200 turtles per hatch. If I need to, I'll ramp up production. 24 hours after, I'll have 600 Turtles and around 300 in the next hatch. Then 900 and 450.

Meanwhile, you're still only gathering bullets at a linear rate. While my ability to soak them, is expanding exponentially.

That is why Bases are undefendable in Ark. Perhaps it's better in the lower pop servers between tribes of 1-3 people. However, you asked me. This is the reality I live in.

[Bobbeh]

Hmm that quoted wrong cause i didnt ask that lol but yes you are correct Darrel... its pretty obvious that Silk knows nothing about actual server vs server pvp

[Bobbeh]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Silky Rough:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 👽💀👽💀👽💀*YYC_Bobbeh*👽💀👽💀👽💀:

ORP is not the answer because it basically makes your base invincible from any type of assault as long as youre not online. That is not at all what i was recommending.

Your entire thread is wrapped around OFFLINE raiding.

People should stop calling offline raiding/wiping PvP.....

Title dude.

ORP does that. wtf would devs make some convoluted timing system for "consensual offline raiding"?

Let me finish your quote with my first sentence

Seriously though, offline raiding although a legit tactic is not PvP (player vs player), its
Player v Structures & AI... Hence why people shouldnt call it pvp...