Discussion on the Speed stat

[Forger of Souls]

Ok, so, in another thread I said that instead of complaining and arguing over the flier nerf, we should instead discuss the speed stat as a whole.

And playing around with settings in the inis on both my servers and SP, I have discovered, that speed is the most OP stat in the game.

Lets looks at the flier scenerio that got the huge cap on speed. In pvp people were abusing speed breed pteras to literally fly faster than the game could load buildings. And thus glitched inside buildings. This combined with reports that speeds that surpassed certain numbers caused issues, such as breaking the servers and crashing them, to causing huge rubberbanding as the game couldn't keep track of where you were cause you were moving to fast.

Does this mean only fliers were this way? No, testing this out I adjusted settings to the point I was able to my character's speed up to 1000%. I ran so fast I crashed ARK. But it was glorious. So, I tried smaller numbers and found that 200% is the sweet spot for humans. As it allows them to outrun the vast majority of ground enemies. And still allowed for quick ground travel to boot. And yes, at 1000% I did die once because I hit a rock and was sent flying into the sky, and fell to me death, I laughed for a good 5 minutes straight.

Now, on one hand, my computer just might not up to snuff to handle the 1000% speed toon. But, after careful testing I have found that double the speed of most creatures was fine, made them fast enough to be useable, yet slow enough to not be out right broken. Of course, there were exceptions (bronto).

For kicks I once made a 1000% speed bronto...

But, back to the discussion, as the example in pvp above showed, people were abusing speed of fliers to glitch into buildings. I've seen many people claim its not possible to do it on ground dinos? But, if my 1000% human taught me anything, is that yes, it is possible to glitch through walls with high enough speed breed galis. It would just take practice to pull it off.

So overall, I have come to the conclusion that there is only two ways to go about fixing speed as a stat so its not as OP as it is.

1: Cap the speed at its base for everything. This is the worst option in reality, as in real life, there are differences in the speed amongst members of all races. So a speed cap of base wouldn't make much sense.

2: Cap the amount of points that can be put into speed. This would be the most logical, as no matter how much training a person does, there is a limit to how fast a member of each species can go.

Feel free to discuss and to share your opinions. But please, do not flame each other over the flier nerf, the flier nerf is not what this thread is about. Keep it civil people.

[SteelFire]

I think what you're going for with point 2 is not exactly your initial point. You say cap points that can be put into speed, but also said a limit to how fast each species can go. Two different things. With just a cap on points put into speed, you would still have the ability to breed for higher speed stats and then add more up to the point cap. That isn't a limit on max species speed.

But I think the latter part of your sentence may be what you're really after... a max speed for each species?

Which I think is the right idea. Change speed for a stupid % value and give it an actual value... because behind that % is a value for what is 100% to start, and we see that when they throw stuff out at us, but they show us a % value in game. If speed had an actual value, then as players we could compare speeds from critter to critter, as they'd all be on the same scale.

Then there's two components: 1) The absolute max speed WC COULD allow to prevent anything glitching through structures, evading turrets, or causing other performance issues. 2) Some value lower than that as max speed WC COULD allow, as a safety factor so that the absolute value is never 'reached' due to a performance hiccup.

From that point, WC can then decide the max speed they WILL allow for each critter and the base speed each critter starts with. Make the max allowed value clear in the creature stats and allow players to add levels to reach that max or not. That still allows player choice and control and allows them to breed for speed if they want, in the hopes they can breed to max and have level points to apply elsewhere.

But that's all too logical and requires actual project planning and organization.

[Forger of Souls]

Originally posted by SteelFire:

I think what you're going for with point 2 is not exactly your initial point. You say cap points that can be put into speed, but also said a limit to how fast each species can go. Two different things. With just a cap on points put into speed, you would still have the ability to breed for higher speed stats and then add more up to the point cap. That isn't a limit on max species speed.

But I think the latter part of your sentence may be what you're really after... a max speed for each species?

Which I think is the right idea. Change speed for a stupid % value and give it an actual value... because behind that % is a value for what is 100% to start, and we see that when they throw stuff out at us, but they show us a % value in game. If speed had an actual value, then as players we could compare speeds from critter to critter, as they'd all be on the same scale.

Then there's two components: 1) The absolute max speed WC COULD allow to prevent anything glitching through structures, evading turrets, or causing other performance issues. 2) Some value lower than that as max speed WC COULD allow, as a safety factor so that the absolute value is never 'reached' due to a performance hiccup.

From that point, WC can then decide the max speed they WILL allow for each critter and the base speed each critter starts with. Make the max allowed value clear in the creature stats and allow players to add levels to reach that max or not. That still allows player choice and control and allows them to breed for speed if they want, in the hopes they can breed to max and have level points to apply elsewhere.

But that's all too logical and requires actual project planning and organization.

Yes, I see what you mean about what I said. And I'd have to agree that they are two different speeds.

Which brings us to the max speed for each species as you suggest. Thats actually a brilliant idea. That would prevent people from breeding to high in the speed stat.

As for the % number showing. There is actually a real number behind them. But for some reason, they show a % instead.

Like, if you went to the wiki and looked at, say, the Allo, you'd notice that its base walking speed is 650. Of course, what does that mean, I have no clue. But, yes, it would be easier to compare them if they showed those numbers instead of percents. I could say the same about melee. As, it to shows a % when it should show a solid number.

Hm...the absolute max speed allowable? That would take lots of testing. It might just be safer to go with lower numbers. But, if it helps them reach a balance easier, than so be, we the players agreed to being their testers for them when we bought into EA. and frankly, I think it would be fun testing the limits.

Player choice and customization, is always good.

Originally posted by B0ss:

What about adding caps to every stat? That's what we're asking for years...

Now, this is an idea I can get behind. For that would make things more "natural". For example, on my friends server I made a squad of max level raptors (non-bred though), trained them to the point I maxed out their levels, and fought and won against a giga. My most happiest moment for the Mini-Rex squad as we came to call them. Should it have been possible for four raptors to beat a giga? I'd think not...but it happened.

[Forger of Souls]

Originally posted by B0ss:

Originally posted by Forger of Souls:

Now, this is an idea I can get behind. For that would make things more "natural". For example, on my friends server I made a squad of max level raptors (non-bred though), trained them to the point I maxed out their levels, and fought and won against a giga. My most happiest moment for the Mini-Rex squad as we came to call them. Should it have been possible for four raptors to beat a giga? I'd think not...but it happened.

Adding a certain cap to every stat would actually balance the combat. Like a 180-200% speed for pteras would help the turrets.
Also, the difference between high and low level dinos should be smaller since it hurts the transparency in the food chain.

Indeed. Hm...lets see here, one of the pokemon mods actually modified the way leveling up works. At least for assigning stats per level up. Instead of adding it to one stat, all stats leveled up, though the gains were smaller. Would that work for stats also? Maybe if at the same time they hard coded a max level for dinos? So that way levels don't get bloated and we don't get level 100000000 jeraboas rampaging? You know, kinda like how virtually every pet game and mmo has max levels to balance things at the top?

For example, a low level person tames a level 1 raptor today, on an official, they get, what, 58 or so levels, or did they increase it, I forget the number. This low level player is obvious prey to anything high, even his raptor, once max leveled...is lackluster. but if they replace the level system to be more fair and balanced, like say, if the difficulty is set on official so that level 150 is max in the wild, but max tamed is 200, that would mean the low level player could enjoy leveling his raptor to 200 and have a fighting chance against other high level threats.

Of course, they would have to do a major rebalance of the game for any of this. But, they said they were going to do a major rebalance, and they are in the process of that now.

[Forger of Souls]

Originally posted by B0ss:

Originally posted by Forger of Souls:

Indeed. Hm...lets see here, one of the pokemon mods actually modified the way leveling up works. At least for assigning stats per level up. Instead of adding it to one stat, all stats leveled up, though the gains were smaller. Would that work for stats also? Maybe if at the same time they hard coded a max level for dinos? So that way levels don't get bloated and we don't get level 100000000 jeraboas rampaging? You know, kinda like how virtually every pet game and mmo has max levels to balance things at the top?

For example, a low level person tames a level 1 raptor today, on an official, they get, what, 58 or so levels, or did they increase it, I forget the number. This low level player is obvious prey to anything high, even his raptor, once max leveled...is lackluster. but if they replace the level system to be more fair and balanced, like say, if the difficulty is set on official so that level 150 is max in the wild, but max tamed is 200, that would mean the low level player could enjoy leveling his raptor to 200 and have a fighting chance against other high level threats.

Of course, they would have to do a major rebalance of the game for any of this. But, they said they were going to do a major rebalance, and they are in the process of that now.

I was talking about adding caps to the dinos' stats dynamically and statically. Leave the levels and make them less meaningful. For example if you tame a level 1 ptera then its speed shouldn't get past 140%. Or if you tame a level 120 ptera then its speed shouldn't get past 200%.

Oh, thats interesting, explain more on this idea.

[Forger of Souls]

Originally posted by B0ss:

Originally posted by Forger of Souls:

Oh, thats interesting, explain more on this idea.

Dinos' stats level depending on their value after being tamed. Movement speed was a special snowflake(along with torpor, but no one cares about it). ms should level with the same algorithm as the other stats except that every stat MUST have a cap, there shouldn't be any special taming bonus(like automaticall +35% for the ptera) or penalty and wild dinos SHOULD level their speed too. Take the http://ark.gamepedia.com/Pteranodon for example: the movement speed row should look like this:

Attribute At level 1 Increase %(Wild|Tamed) Id max value% Max value%
...
Speed 100% 1|(tamed-value / 100 * 1.5) (tamed-value*1.35) 200

If you've tamed a level 60 ptera which put 20 points into its speed then it should've 120% speed. If it gets 5 points into its speed after being tamed then it should've 125% speed. Then its speed increase per point would be 1.875%. By buffing it with 10 points it would be 143%. Its max speed would be 168%.

Now, that is a good idea. I like this. Any other good ideas while we are on this subject?

[Forger of Souls]

Well...combat moral stat? Please explain? Is this like giving dinos and players PTSD?

[Forger of Souls]

Originally posted by B0ss:

Originally posted by Forger of Souls:

Well...combat moral stat? Please explain? Is this like giving dinos and players PTSD?

They would run away after getting certain amount of damage.

Algorithm:

if((maxHP - currentHP) >= amountOfHP * amountOfMoral) {
flee()
}

Sample:

HP = 2000

Moral = 30

If the amount of HP loss equals or bigger than 600 then your dino should flee for a few seconds(5-10) even if you're riding it.
Dinos with moral < 10 should throw off the rider too(an agility stat for humans would be great to counter it).
Dinos tamed under level 10 shouldn't have more than 10 morals.
A dino with moral=100 would fight until death.
Moral should be leveled by kills and not by xp.

Thats interesting and certianlly would add some more chaos to battles. But, what would prevent players from going all over the island chomping on everything till moral improves?

[Forger of Souls]

How to help low level people avoid these issues? Thats a good question, might want to make moral more like a hidden hp stat. That shifts depending on certain things, like number of enemies, allies, current health vs enemy health, etc. This way, its not a bad thing to tame a lower level creature.

[woodsguide]

morale deff has alot of ad hoc modifers applied constantly... i love the idea

[CAPTMEATSACK]

I say let it be a choice to cap speeds or not as a option. But as for the cap on flyers 200% is all I ever needed on my sp game to make a good flyer. Gets to point a and b quite nicely not to op and you can't glitch from it.

[Forger of Souls]

Originally posted by CAPTMEATSACK:

I say let it be a choice to cap speeds or not as a option. But as for the cap on flyers 200% is all I ever needed on my sp game to make a good flyer. Gets to point a and b quite nicely not to op and you can't glitch from it.

Yeah, 200% seems like a good place to be actually. And the option for a cap or not is good to. That way, if they ever make the software strong enough to handle the speeds...

[Boatabike]

There should be 2 caps, one stock and one breeding, anyone investing time and effort should get a better critter, therefore breeding should allow an extra push past standard cap, not to be game breaking but to make breeding a valid option. example cap ay 180% and then the 200% can be achieved with breeding.

[Forger of Souls]

Originally posted by Boatabike:

There should be 2 caps, one stock and one breeding, anyone investing time and effort should get a better critter, therefore breeding should allow an extra push past standard cap, not to be game breaking but to make breeding a valid option.

Yeah, I can see a second cap for breeding, but how high should it go? If its to high, we just hit the problem the nerf was "solving".

[SteelFire]

Originally posted by B0ss:

Originally posted by Forger of Souls:

Well...combat moral stat? Please explain? Is this like giving dinos and players PTSD?

They would run away after getting certain amount of damage.

Algorithm:

if((maxHP - currentHP) >= amountOfHP * amountOfMoral) {
flee()
}

Sample:

HP = 2000

Moral = 30

If the amount of HP loss equals or bigger than 600 then your dino should flee for a few seconds(5-10) even if you're riding it.
Dinos with moral < 10 should throw off the rider too(an agility stat for humans would be great to counter it).
Dinos tamed under level 10 shouldn't have more than 10 morals.
A dino with moral=100 would fight until death.
Moral should be leveled by kills and not by xp.

Edit: to reward people using special taming food "perfect-tamed" dinos should've 100 moral by default. There should be a way to counter such beasts...

Not particularly fond of this idea myself, at least not the aspect of forced fleeing. That's right up there with stun locks. It takes away player control. Any action that is forced upon the player, no matter what they try to do or their own skill, is a bad action.

The only other way to handle a morale type of thing, that I can think of, would be to apply a debuff. The problem there is that you're now compounding what's already happening, the critter losing a fight.

I suspect from the dossier that the Yutyrannus roar may be intended to do something like that though, applying a debuff to enemies and a buff to friendlies. I think having such effect should be limited to a dino special ability though, rather than a normal thing. It helps keep critters specialized and able to be countered through planning and strategy.

Of course, don't even get me started on how much we don't need the yutyrannus and the mechanic should have instead been added to the Rex, where it was obviously intended to be in the first place.

[woodsguide]

a bit more on morale..

+ for added companions
- for added enemy

+ for higher lvl
- for lower lvl

+ for imprinting

+ for well fed
- for hungry

the list could go on for days.. there are too many variables to list here ;o)