Why are there no shields in this game?

[Syrenion]

This is kind of an odd question, but after having burried yet another enemy army in a hail of arrows, I wonder: Why does no unit use shields?

This question is adressed at history buffs. After all, from the few japanese films I've seen (Last Samurai, the Seven Samurai, Ran, etc.) and this game - which seems to be pretty histrorically accurate - I have never actually noticed any historical military unit in the Japanese Middle Ages ever carrying a protective shield. Is that a cultural thing? I could imagine the Samurai themselves not carrying shields due to their codex of honor or skill or whatever, but why are simple units like spear levies not using them?

I'm just asking because it makes no sense to me at all - all across the globe nearly every army up to the middle ages used shields (from the Vikings to the Romans to the Chinese etc.) - after all, you could have a lot less casualties simply by having them carry around shields made of wood that could block volleys of arrows. And I need not mention the shield wall formation.

So yeah, I'd really be interested in an answer to this mystery :)

[Destin Faroda]

Originally posted by Syrenion:

Why does no unit use shields?

Japanese did use shields up to the Heian period as they had copied the Chinese T'ang military conscription system. However, as conscripted peasants sucked and they constantly found creative ways to avoid military service by selling their land to temples, the government implemented the Kondei reforms. This favoured, smaller, but more elite troops and marked the beginning of the rise of the samurai. These kondei troops - which yet had to learn the efficiency of formation warfare from the invading Mongols - prefered archery duels against equals.
They were usually equipped with heavy, bulky oyoroi armours. I presume shields would only have gotten into the way of wielding a bow, so it was not anymore used. Besides, arrows were not that lethal against armoured troops as Hollywood and TW would make us believe. Bows were primarily used to lower the enemy's morale. However, during the Genpei period, 80% of all casualties can be attributed to arrows thanks to the Japanese obsession for rituals and duels.

Centuries later, Sengoku troops carried around big, mobile shields - the odate - but not normal ones. Odate can only be used when you are the defender and had the chance to entrench yourself (general is surrounded by spikes on the campaign map). The rise of firearms made shields obsolete both in Europe and Japan.

Originally posted by Syrenion:

After all, from the few japanese films I've seen (Last Samurai, the Seven Samurai, Ran, etc.) and this game - which seems to be pretty histrorically accurate - I have never actually noticed any historical military unit in the Japanese Middle Ages ever carrying a protective shield.

Shogun II is definitely not historically accurate:
- Arrows were not that lethal and Japanese wore lamellar armour and breastplates (tosei gusoku).
- the katana was not a primary weapon as it could easily break and would lose against massed polearms.
- the cavalry units should be riding ponies instead of these ugly cows.
- ninjas neither wore pyjamas nor did they fight on the battlefield.
- Japanese couldn't use magical buffs.
- Japanese didn't fly over the battlefield. Instead, they had to walk like normal human beings.
etc.

Originally posted by Syrenion:

Is that a cultural thing? I could imagine the Samurai themselves not carrying shields due to their codex of honor or skill or whatever, but why are simple units like spear levies not using them?

The honour code was mostly developed and glorified during the peaceful Edo period. Before the Edo period, samurai were known for cutting off the heads of other samurai to collect a bounty from the daimyo and they didn't shy away from treason, ambushes and other dirty tactics. Japanese cavalry was solely used for scouting and raiding as ponies were not suited for Western shock tactics.

[Syrenion]

Originally posted by Destin Faroda:

Originally posted by Syrenion:

Why does no unit use shields?

Japanese did use shields up to the Heian period as they had copied the Chinese T'ang military conscription system. However, as conscripted peasants sucked and they constantly found creative ways to avoid military service by selling their land to temples, the government implemented the Kondei reforms. This favoured, smaller, but more elite troops and marked the beginning of the rise of the samurai. These kondei troops - which yet had to learn the efficiency of formation warfare from the invading Mongols - prefered archery duels against equals.
They were usually equipped with heavy, bulky oyoroi armours. I presume shields would only have gotten into the way of wielding a bow, so it was not anymore used. Besides, arrows were not that lethal against armoured troops as Hollywood and TW would make us believe. Bows were primarily used to lower the enemy's morale. However, during the Genpei period, 80% of all casualties can be attributed to arrows thanks to the Japanese obsession for rituals and duels.

Centuries later, Sengoku troops carried around big, mobile shields - the odate - but not normal ones. Odate can only be used when you are the defender and had the chance to entrench yourself (general is surrounded by spikes on the campaign map). The rise of firearms made shields obsolete both in Europe and Japan.

Originally posted by Syrenion:

After all, from the few japanese films I've seen (Last Samurai, the Seven Samurai, Ran, etc.) and this game - which seems to be pretty histrorically accurate - I have never actually noticed any historical military unit in the Japanese Middle Ages ever carrying a protective shield.

Shogun II is definitely not historically accurate:
- Arrows were not that lethal and Japanese wore lamellar armour and breastplates (tosei gusoku).
- the katana was not a primary weapon as it could easily break and would lose against massed polearms.
- the cavalry units should be riding ponies instead of these ugly cows.
- ninjas neither wore pyjamas nor did they fight on the battlefield.
- Japanese couldn't use magical buffs.
- Japanese didn't fly over the battlefield. Instead, they had to walk like normal human beings.
etc.

Originally posted by Syrenion:

Is that a cultural thing? I could imagine the Samurai themselves not carrying shields due to their codex of honor or skill or whatever, but why are simple units like spear levies not using them?

The honour code was mostly developed and glorified during the peaceful Edo period. Before the Edo period, samurai were known for cutting off the heads of other samurai to collect a bounty from the daimyo and they didn't shy away from treason, ambushes and other dirty tactics. Japanese cavalry was solely used for scouting and raiding as ponies were not suited for Western shock tactics.

Wow, that's a lot of useful information! Thank you so much for answering my question in such detail. I kind of should have guessed that Shogun II isn't that historically accurate :D Are you a student of Asian history?

In any case, I find history of non-European cultures extremely interesting although I only know little due to the rather one sided and Euro-centric history education that is practiced in most of Europe. I also wonder if a historically accurate Total War game would be possible or even fun. I'd be worth a try, though :)

Anyway, thanks again for that thorough answer :)

[Destin Faroda]

Originally posted by Syrenion:

Are you a student of Asian history?

No. I'm just a Shogun II realism modder and a fansubber. I'm trying to improve my knowledge about Japan, but I don't have money for expensive books and good sources in English or German language are hard to find. Luckily, some people enjoying my mod know quite a bit about Japanese history and they sometimes post some useful facts info in my twcenter forum thread.

Originally posted by Syrenion:

I also wonder if a historically accurate Total War game would be possible or even fun.

Realism mods for TW games are absolutely essential and make them thousand times better than vanilla:
- Rome: Rome Total Realism
- Medieval 2: Stainless Steel
- Empire: Empire Realism
- Napoleon: Napoleon Empire Realism
- Shogun II: Shogun II Realism+ and my Shogun II Total Realism
- Rome II: Rome II Total Realism

[easytarget]

And it should be noted that CA is not trying to make their game series realistic, they'd be the first ones to tell you this. The TW series is not a simulation and doesn't pretend to be one so holding it to any such standard is absurd.

That of course has not stopped modders from trying to make it "realistic", which is mostly just amusing to watch, rather like watching the MP crowd try and make it "competitive".

[Syrenion]

Originally posted by easytarget:

And it should be noted that CA is not trying to make their game series realistic, they'd be the first ones to tell you this. The TW series is not a simulation and doesn't pretend to be one so holding it to any such standard is absurd.

Of course! :) I was just looking for a solution of a dillemma that the vanilla game poses: armour seems to pretty useless against arrows and sieges are largely won by just showering the enemy troups with long range units. It would make sense for the in-game world to have shield units to compensate for this obvious disadvantage. So I was looking for a clue in terms of historical reference, which, thanks to Destin Faroda, I found. Of course I would not blame CA for being not historically accurate, since they themselves do not claim such. But I think it's always fun to compare history to fictious depictions of history. Especially if you compare, for example, German historical fictious texts from the Middle Ages about knights and life at court with the findings of archeology, sociology and historical reconstruction etc. This is a lot of fun when you can read Middle High German, which luckily, I can :D

I'm very intrigued by the idea of playing a historically accurate game! Then again, I also enjoy the vanilla game a lot, especially since I'm a sucker for archery (being an archer in real life myself). I'll definitely check those mods out, especially the ones for Rome II (I just bought it and it's still downloading those 25GBs). Thanks again for the tips, Destin Faroda :)

[LSD]

I hated RTR. Europa Barbarorum was cool, even with the vast amounts of copy-pasted text.
RTR was just monotonous.

[R.A.T. Army *MST3K*]

Warhammer said it best. "Cover is for the weak."

[Delta 1038]

Originally posted by easytarget:

And it should be noted that CA is not trying to make their game series realistic, they'd be the first ones to tell you this. The TW series is not a simulation and doesn't pretend to be one so holding it to any such standard is absurd.

That of course has not stopped modders from trying to make it "realistic", which is mostly just amusing to watch, rather like watching the MP crowd try and make it "competitive".

The encyclopedia however is pretty insightful and if I recall, they did talk about why the Japanese don't use shields in this era and how they had to compensate this with sword techniques.

[easytarget]

My take on the idea of adding realism to a game not desinged for it is one of amuesement w/ the modders, who often claim to be doing much more than they actually are, tweak a bunch of stats for the most part is all, usually doing the same sort of buff/nerf thing the MP guys are always wasting time talking about so much, and in the end, what Fadora calls realism mods end up being BORING as hell to actually play and often unbalanced as a result.

If the design intent of the devs making the game was fun w/in a historical setting (which you can tell at a glance at TW series was the idea) then stay wtih that idea and stop making a square peg fit a round hole.

And this is not to say that I don't like realism, I own and play every Combat Mission ever made and if you want realism to the level of being simulation then this is your series of games you should look into by Battlefront (assuming you like WW2 of course). This game series was built from the ground up as a sim, every single detail of an engagement is modelled in the game, as a result the mod community for this one only focuses on improving the modelling of the units rather than tweaking the game itself which already has all the physics and environmental modelling done.

[Mad_Sailor01]

I think there might be an option under the game settings that allows you to change the strength of this unit, if not there is likely a mod out there that will help you.

[Jon]

because the samurai code considered it coweardly.

[Delta 1038]

Originally posted by Sir Jon Trollinski:

because the samurai code considered it coweardly.

The whole concept of the Samurai being obsessed with honour comes from the Edo period where there was relative peace in Japan.

Like Samurai and Ninja: They're not a different class, just jobs. Hattori Hanzo was a samurai first, ninja second.

[[*UNITY*]_ james]

Originally posted by Destin Faroda:

Originally posted by Syrenion:

Are you a student of Asian history?

No. I'm just a Shogun II realism modder and a fansubber. I'm trying to improve my knowledge about Japan, but I don't have money for expensive books and good sources in English or German language are hard to find. Luckily, some people enjoying my mod know quite a bit about Japanese history and they sometimes post some useful facts info in my twcenter forum thread.

Originally posted by Syrenion:

I also wonder if a historically accurate Total War game would be possible or even fun.

Realism mods for TW games are absolutely essential and make them thousand times better than vanilla:
- Rome: Rome Total Realism
- Medieval 2: Stainless Steel
- Empire: Empire Realism
- Napoleon: Napoleon Empire Realism
- Shogun II: Shogun II Realism+ and my Shogun II Total Realism
- Rome II: Rome II Total Realism

Destin, I don't understand your obsession with realism. Vanilla (especially in the more polished Total Wars like Medieval 2 and Shogun 2) is perfectly playable and can easily be fun without mods. And there's other great mods that don't focus (or don't exist just for) on realism.

[NISSE]

Using a shield would be SHAMEFUR DISPRAY!

[Fiachra]

I never noticed that. Interesting and informative replies too!