What side were the Western powers really on during the Boshin War?

[Smokedice]

I know the total war games are meant to let you mess around and play out history differently than how it happened, but what confuses me is I first thought the Imperials were pro-modernization and had the support of the Americans or English, but actually it was the Shogunate that got really friendly with the West, as opposed to the Imperials who were all like "expel the (western) barbarians." But then later on the Imperials did embrace modernization..so what did the Western powers change sides?

Yeah I really am confused and would thank any Japanese history buff to make it clearer.

[SMILEDOZER]

They weren't on any side. They did however trade in select ports such as Nagasaki, which is why Saga imports from the British, French, and Americans. Remember, at this point the Emperor expelled the foreigners. The Emperor won the conflict against the Shogun and thus was born the Empire of Japan.

[Smokedice]

Originally posted by Smiledozer |Wolves Anon.|:

They weren't on any side. They did however trade in select ports such as Nagasaki, which is why Saga imports from the British, French, and Americans. Remember, at this point the Emperor expelled the foreigners. The Emperor won the conflict against the Shogun and thus was born the Empire of Japan.

So if the emperor expelled the foreigners, then why are imperial factions still trading with the foreigners and getting more western-style modern armies than the shogunate factions?

[The_Yogi]

The Shogunate was seriously modernizing with the help of The French under formal Military Aid and Training (Shogunate Guards were armed with Chassepot Rifles, cutting edge at the time). In the Republic of Ezo, the French Instructors even become commanders of Shogunate Remnants. Ever wondered why the commanders in Miyako Bay Historical Battle sounds very un-Japanese? Yep, That's right.
It also the Shogunate who originally purchased The CSS Stonewall, later known as the Kotetsu when it fell into the hands of the Imperial Navy.

This wasn't the case with the feudal armies of Shogunate's supporters.

Why The Imperial Factions trading with foreigners? Well, reality ensues: The Western Nations launched Punitive Expeditions, bombarding Kagoshima and Shimonoseki to the ground. Shogunate Army foiled Imperialist Rebellions and Coups.

Advanced, Modern Weapons worked. Period. If Anti-Shogunate forces want to overthrow the Tokugawa, they need to modernize. After all, it was contact to and the trade with the outside that let the western Tozama domains flourish.

[Smokedice]

Originally posted by The_Yogi:

The Shogunate was seriously modernizing with the help of The French under formal Military Aid and Training (Shogunate Guards were armed with Chassepot Rifles, cutting edge at the time). In the Republic of Ezo, the French Instructors even become commanders of Shogunate Remnants. Ever wondered why the commanders in Miyako Bay Historical Battle sounds very un-Japanese? Yep, That's right.
It also the Shogunate who originally purchased The CSS Stonewall, later known as the Kotetsu when it fell into the hands of the Imperial Navy.

This wasn't the case with the feudal armies of Shogunate's supporters.

Why The Imperial Factions trading with foreigners? Well, reality ensues: The Western Nations launched Punitive Expeditions, bombarding Kagoshima and Shimonoseki to the ground. Shogunate Army foiled Imperialist Rebellions and Coups.

Advanced, Modern Weapons worked. Period. If Anti-Shogunate forces want to overthrow the Tokugawa, they need to modernize. After all, it was contact to and the trade with the outside that let the western Tozama domains flourish.

So did the west actually change sides from supporting the Shogunate to supporting the Imperials?

[Sentient_Fool]

I'll answer here. Like Smiledozer said. The Westerners were not homogeneous in their approach to the Boshin War. So contradictions do show up when you examine the role the Western powers had. But you're right that the Shogunate antagonized some domestic nationalist sentiment when they befriended (at gunpoint I might add) the West.

In short they didn't support anyone directly. They simply propped up their partners of choice.

Partly due to anti-foreign sentiment, but equally capitalized on by the anti-shogunate domains, you had political movements like Sonnō jōi, and others curry favour by siding with the Emperor and sending imperial decrees criticizing shogunate tolerance of the West.

But then you see that western commerce, influence and trade was already too deeply embedded to be removed, that it was hard to put up a anti-western front. Especially after the punitve measures by the westerners only reinforced the pragmatic reality that they needed better equipment. The Imperials were more about bluffing as an excuse to challenge the weakening Shogunate though foreign policy.

So both sides were already modernizing, under the British and French. Satsuma and Choshu getting really friendly with the British. While the Shogunate curried favour with the French.
yet in this arms race, the Imperials were far ahead of the Shogunate militarily. They simply modernized faster, and in the process gave up the anti-foreign sentiment.

It is erroneous to label all the individual players under a catch-all term like "The West" .
Britain and France had reasons to support their partners, not because they actually opposed one another but that it was simply more convenient. Both favoured maintaining a status quo that kept them trading. Although they remained largely uninvolved except for training and trading. They never cared for the civil turmoil, just as long as a functional government was in place to maintain relations.

They did not support, change sides or do anything directly.

(Although the French military mission sympathized and joined with the Shogunate as The_Yogi states above)


A similar thing happened in the Taiping rebellion. Except for the "Ever Victorious Army".

[Smokedice]

Originally posted by Sentient_Fool:

I'll answer here. Like Smiledozer said. The Westerners were not homogeneous in their approach to the Boshin War. So contradictions do show up when you examine the role the Western powers had. But your right that the Shogunate antagonized some domestic nationalist sentiment when they befriended (at gunpoint I might add) the West.

In short they didn't support anyone directly. They simply propped up their partners of choice.

Partly due to anti-foreign sentiment, but equally capitalized on by the anti-shogunate domains, you had political movements like Sonnō jōi, and others curry favour by siding with the Emperor and sending imperial decrees criticizing shogunate tolerance of the West.

But then you see that western commerce, influence and trade was already too deeply embedded to be removed, that it was hard to put up a anti-western front. Especially after the punitve measures by the westerners only reinforced the pragmatic reality that they needed better equipment. The Imperials were more about bluffing as an excuse to challenge the weakening Shogunate though foreign policy.

So both sides were already modernizing, under the British and French. Satsuma and Choshu getting really friendly with the British. While the Shogunate curried favour with the French.
yet in this arms race, the Imperials were far ahead of the Shogunate militarily. They simply modernized faster, and in the process gave up the anti-foreign sentiment.

It is erroneous to label all the individual players under a catch-all term like "The West" .
Britain and France had reasons to support their partners, not because they actually opposed one another but that it was simply more convenient. Both favoured maintaining a status quo that kept them trading. Although they remained largely uninvolved except for training and trading. They never cared for the civil turmoil, just as long as a functional government was in place to maintain relations.

They did not support, change sides or do anything directly.

(Although the French military mission sympathized and joined with the Shogunate as The_Yogi states above)


A similar thing happened in the Taiping rebellion. Except for the "Ever Victorious Army".

k thanks for clearing that up better!

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Sentient_Fool:

I'll answer here. Like Smiledozer said. The Westerners were not homogeneous in their approach to the Boshin War. So contradictions do show up when you examine the role the Western powers had. But your right that the Shogunate antagonized some domestic nationalist sentiment when they befriended (at gunpoint I might add) the West.

In short they didn't support anyone directly. They simply propped up their partners of choice.

Partly due to anti-foreign sentiment, but equally capitalized on by the anti-shogunate domains, you had political movements like Sonnō jōi, and others curry favour by siding with the Emperor and sending imperial decrees criticizing shogunate tolerance of the West.

But then you see that western commerce, influence and trade was already too deeply embedded to be removed, that it was hard to put up a anti-western front. Especially after the punitve measures by the westerners only reinforced the pragmatic reality that they needed better equipment. The Imperials were more about bluffing as an excuse to challenge the weakening Shogunate though foreign policy.

So both sides were already modernizing, under the British and French. Satsuma and Choshu getting really friendly with the British. While the Shogunate curried favour with the French.
yet in this arms race, the Imperials were far ahead of the Shogunate militarily. They simply modernized faster, and in the process gave up the anti-foreign sentiment.

It is erroneous to label all the individual players under a catch-all term like "The West" .
Britain and France had reasons to support their partners, not because they actually opposed one another but that it was simply more convenient. Both favoured maintaining a status quo that kept them trading. Although they remained largely uninvolved except for training and trading. They never cared for the civil turmoil, just as long as a functional government was in place to maintain relations.

They did not support, change sides or do anything directly.

(Although the French military mission sympathized and joined with the Shogunate as The_Yogi states above)


A similar thing happened in the Taiping rebellion. Except for the "Ever Victorious Army".

Yes, just like today with Ukraine.

States have very rarely unilaterally supported one "side" over another: they usually support or try to isolate particular factional interests so as to further commercial and other special interests tied to a respective state.