Does trade with an enemy of an ally matter?

[JavaJack]

I am just wondering, since (It has been a little while, may get it wrong) An allied faction declared war on me, and there was a -"x" for disrespect(?) or something? Is that for dealing with their enemies, or no?

[Skycrawler501]

Certain actions can apply, perhaps you raided too much or you (more likely the AI) broke a treaty to obtain negative diplomacy points with another clan. Having agreements with another clan's enemy can cause resentment which then can lead to war. Other times you automatically have negative diplomatic points with another clan, more often than not due to historical past dealings.

Trade shouldn't be too much of a problem, but depending on the clan, they might have a problem with you for doing so. While this isn't as prominent as in Shogun 2 (trading at least) it is in FotS.

-Skycrawler501

[JavaJack]

Originally posted by Skycrawler501:

Certain actions can apply, perhaps you raided too much or you (more likely the AI) broke a treaty to obtain negative diplomacy points with another clan. Having agreements with another clan's enemy can cause resentment which then can lead to war. Other times you automatically have negative diplomatic points with another clan, more often than not due to historical past dealings.

Trade shouldn't be too much of a problem, but depending on the clan, they might have a problem with you for doing so. While this isn't as prominent as in Shogun 2 (trading at least) it is in FotS.

-Skycrawler501

Alright, thanks for the info. The campaign I was playing was Date, and the Ally in question was Takeda (I am willing to bet that is why lol) I figured it was because either trading with enemies, or taking settlements they were just about to take, making them help, and keeping the settlement for myself. thanks for the help though.

[JavaJack]

I have played a fairly respectable amount of this game, and the TW series in general (Not nearly as much as some people I have seen) But this game's diplomacy never made much sense to me. Allies attacking you just because you are close to them, and someone more powerful on the other front? I feel that alliances should be kept for a large portion of the game, not just for a few turns, then war, but AI, ya know?

[Skycrawler501]

Originally posted by BravoEcho:

I have played a fairly respectable amount of this game, and the TW series in general (Not nearly as much as some people I have seen) But this game's diplomacy never made much sense to me. Allies attacking you just because you are close to them, and someone more powerful on the other front? I feel that alliances should be kept for a large portion of the game, not just for a few turns, then war, but AI, ya know?

It depends. Perhaps that ally of yours is also on friendly terms with the power next to them? And since they have no beef with them, they'll have beef with you (more beef at higher difficulty levels, at least it feels like it).

In Shogun 2, you always make an obvious enemy for your ally so they can always be busy/at war. If you cut off their advancement, they'll feel threatened and encircled = war with you (if it's your back lines, it just makes it a very juicy target).

In FotS, once you declare your alliegence to the Shogun/Emperor = most clans stick with their own factions to the bitter end. In base game Shogun 2, not so much (though it is the Sengoku Jidai, 'Warring States' , period so ...).

-Skycrawler501

[JavaJack]

Originally posted by Skycrawler501:

Originally posted by BravoEcho:

I have played a fairly respectable amount of this game, and the TW series in general (Not nearly as much as some people I have seen) But this game's diplomacy never made much sense to me. Allies attacking you just because you are close to them, and someone more powerful on the other front? I feel that alliances should be kept for a large portion of the game, not just for a few turns, then war, but AI, ya know?

It depends. Perhaps that ally of yours is also on friendly terms with the power next to them? And since they have no beef with them, they'll have beef with you (more beef at higher difficulty levels, at least it feels like it).

In Shogun 2, you always make an obvious enemy for your ally so they can always be busy/at war. If you cut off their advancement, they'll feel threatened and encircled = war with you (if it's your back lines, it just makes it a very juicy target).

In FotS, once you declare your alliegence to the Shogun/Emperor = most clans stick with their own factions to the bitter end. In base game Shogun 2, not so much (though it is the Sengoku Jidai, 'Warring States' , period so ...).

-Skycrawler501

Thanks. Appreciate your help.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by BravoEcho:

I am just wondering, since (It has been a little while, may get it wrong) An allied faction declared war on me, and there was a -"x" for disrespect(?) or something? Is that for dealing with their enemies, or no?

I'm fairly certain that trading with an enemy is not considered bad by allies. Marriage with the ally's enemy, giving gifts, and stuff like that is going to negatively impact though.

A faction can get the "Clan not respected" modifier for breaking deals, being overly weak for a prolonged time, etc. but to my knowledge setting up a trade deal wouldn't do that.

Keep in mind that when you mouse over the clan and see all the modifiers, these include things on their part, not just what you've done to them.

For example, if you gave military access to a clan, and while they were in your territory, they attack you, you will see the "Backstabber!" modifier when you mouse over them in diplomacy panel. But this isn't saying that you are the backstabber; the game keeps track and reports what the AI clan did to you in addition to what you may have done to them.

So if it says "clan not respected," that doesn't mean you are the one who is not respected, or that you did anything wrong ;)

[Skycrawler501]

Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:

Originally posted by BravoEcho:

I am just wondering, since (It has been a little while, may get it wrong) An allied faction declared war on me, and there was a -"x" for disrespect(?) or something? Is that for dealing with their enemies, or no?

I'm fairly certain that trading with an enemy is not considered bad by allies. Marriage with the ally's enemy, giving gifts, and stuff like that is going to negatively impact though.

A faction can get the "Clan not respected" modifier for breaking deals, being overly weak for a prolonged time, etc. but to my knowledge setting up a trade deal wouldn't do that.

Keep in mind that when you mouse over the clan and see all the modifiers, these include things on their part, not just what you've done to them.

For example, if you gave military access to a clan, and while they were in your territory, they attack you, you will see the "Backstabber!" modifier when you mouse over them in diplomacy panel. But this isn't saying that you are the backstabber; the game keeps track and reports what the AI clan did to you in addition to what you may have done to them.

So if it says "clan not respected," that doesn't mean you are the one who is not respected, or that you did anything wrong ;)

I wouldn't consider it bad by allies to trade with others as well, but I've noticed (more so in FotS than Sengoku Jidai, probably due to alligence) that trading is still considered a contract with another clan = an enemy/opposing clan can take offense to this.

You can't obtain 'breaking past diplomatic ties (about -40 dipolatic points)' with breaking a trade agreement though which is great considering AI.

-Skycrawler501

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Skycrawler501:

Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:

I'm fairly certain that trading with an enemy is not considered bad by allies. Marriage with the ally's enemy, giving gifts, and stuff like that is going to negatively impact though.

A faction can get the "Clan not respected" modifier for breaking deals, being overly weak for a prolonged time, etc. but to my knowledge setting up a trade deal wouldn't do that.

Keep in mind that when you mouse over the clan and see all the modifiers, these include things on their part, not just what you've done to them.

For example, if you gave military access to a clan, and while they were in your territory, they attack you, you will see the "Backstabber!" modifier when you mouse over them in diplomacy panel. But this isn't saying that you are the backstabber; the game keeps track and reports what the AI clan did to you in addition to what you may have done to them.

So if it says "clan not respected," that doesn't mean you are the one who is not respected, or that you did anything wrong ;)

I wouldn't consider it bad by allies to trade with others as well, but I've noticed (more so in FotS than Sengoku Jidai, probably due to alligence) that trading is still considered a contract with another clan = an enemy/opposing clan can take offense to this.

You can't obtain 'breaking past diplomatic ties (about -40 dipolatic points)' with breaking a trade agreement though which is great considering AI.

-Skycrawler501

I tend to play Sengoku way more than Boshin, so that's probably why I haven't noticed.

I think you must be correct that the AI does take it into account, but it seems pretty negligible, at least in Sengoku.