Optimal army stack size?

[Geronimo]

I play on very hard. What is the best army size? I now played with 4 full stacks but isn't it better to reduce the army size and spread those over to 5 armies, so 16 units per army. But is it possible to face any full stack army with just 16 of yours in a field situation?

Personally, I'd like to play with 6 samurai bow or combined with monk bow units so once you're defending inside a fort, you can face any army, even those ronin bow units. Those are menacing and can mow down a full unit in a very short time.

16 units per army means like 6 bow units, 8 infantry and 2 cavalry. It seems a bit on the short hand. You can lower the bow units to 4, and increase infantry to 10 but then you will be peppered in certain situations.

Maybe 18 is the best. On very hard it's very difficult to face all factions fighting you once you gain legendary status. You keep running around fighting armies landing on your shores so I'm wondering how to divide the units per army.

What do you guys think.

[Milites]

16 units vs full stack is surely possible, but generally the greatest challenge for the player is always face two or even more full stacks of enemy armies, which is much likely to be a disastrous failure for you even if you got one full stack of army. So I would suggest you do not restrict your army to a certain number of units or a fixed composition, but apply a more flexible strategy, like you recruit a full stack and leave your home provinces to launch an attack, then you could either split your forces to chase down the defeated enemy army or besiege the castle, or combine the small size of your armies to fight against the enemy main force.

[Geronimo]

I get what you mean. There are these situations in which you're inside a fort and two armies attack one after the other or just at the same time. And while you're taking a breather, another army may come at you. I have to say, on a full stack with an experienced army I rarely lose. But I didn't dare to reduce the army size to spread them out better, because once you get 20+ provinces, it's very hard to expand them while not losing them somewhere else. So I keep going on two thoughts: keeping the 20 or so full stacks, knowing you're practically invincible in many situations or reducing them to better cover your territory while expanding.

[Milites]

Originally posted by Geronimo:

I get what you mean. There are these situations in which you're inside a fort and two armies attack one after the other or just at the same time. And while you're taking a breather, another army may come at you. I have to say, on a full stack with an experienced army I rarely lose. But I didn't dare to reduce the army size to spread them out better, because once you get 20+ provinces, it's very hard to expand them while not losing them somewhere else. So I keep going on two thoughts: keeping the 20 or so full stacks, knowing you're practically invincible in many situations or reducing them to better cover your territory while expanding.

I would say it's more like a personal preference issue. For me i don't even care losing several settlements to the enemy as long as my field armies are intact. The lost lands can be easily retrieved, just a matter of time. But since you don't want to lose anywhere you already occupied, then perhaps your only choice is to downsize your armies if you can't afford the upkeep of full stacks

[Eddie G]

I have as many armies as I have generals. I think multiple smaller armies is better than concentrating your force into 1 or 2 armies. For one thing you can defend more territory, which doesn't become an issue really until you get a few provinces. I believe they give you 2 generals at the start for a reason. As soon as I take my first province, I start slowing building my second army while keeping the main strong. It's a slower paced game, and requires patience, but I find it pays off.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Milites:

Originally posted by Geronimo:

I get what you mean. There are these situations in which you're inside a fort and two armies attack one after the other or just at the same time. And while you're taking a breather, another army may come at you. I have to say, on a full stack with an experienced army I rarely lose. But I didn't dare to reduce the army size to spread them out better, because once you get 20+ provinces, it's very hard to expand them while not losing them somewhere else. So I keep going on two thoughts: keeping the 20 or so full stacks, knowing you're practically invincible in many situations or reducing them to better cover your territory while expanding.

I would say it's more like a personal preference issue. For me i don't even care losing several settlements to the enemy as long as my field armies are intact. The lost lands can be easily retrieved, just a matter of time. But since you don't want to lose anywhere you already occupied, then perhaps your only choice is to downsize your armies if you can't afford the upkeep of full stacks

I lost my game because they went for the island where the Shimazu's homeland is located and I was without defense there. They crippled my economy and I went bankrupt while my four full stack armies were pushing to Kyoto. So this is why I'm questioning my strategy.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Eddie G:

I have as many armies as I have generals. I think multiple smaller armies is better than concentrating your force into 1 or 2 armies. For one thing you can defend more territory, which doesn't become an issue really until you get a few provinces. I believe they give you 2 generals at the start for a reason. As soon as I take my first province, I start slowing building my second army while keeping the main strong. It's a slower paced game, and requires patience, but I find it pays off.

I don't think you're playing on very hard. If you're facing full stacks with a myriad of warrior monks, bow ronins, or just heavy infantry you're done without a mature stack. And I'm talking about the end game (small campaign), that phase in which you have about 20 provinces and you're close to Kyoto while fighting everyone everywhere.

[Sn3z]

Its 19 units + general in any scenario, ashigaru are supposed to be used to bloat out your army to keep upkeep costs down, even if you using bow samurai you should still be using bow ashigaru, you would ideally have 50:50.

in rush comps less yari ashigaru means less frontage, not a risk to take because you want to envelope, especially if AI is camped and you are attacking.

Why not go for reducing upkeep cost skill in the general tree I sometimes max it out, its better the more upkeep cost your paying per stack. or just go to high taxation and leave it there, nullifying the public order, for more map presence. High taxation will get basically get you another stack in the end.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Sn3z:

Its 19 units + general in any scenario, ashigaru are supposed to be used to bloat out your army to keep upkeep costs down, even if you using bow samurai you should still be using bow ashigaru, you would ideally have 50:50.

in rush comps less yari ashigaru means less frontage, not a risk to take because you want to envelope, especially if AI is camped and you are attacking.

Why not go for reducing upkeep cost skill in the general tree I sometimes max it out, its better the more upkeep cost your paying per stack. or just go to high taxation and leave it there, nullifying the public order, for more map presence. High taxation will get basically get you another stack in the end.

Well, I'm going for a different approach. I only use my home province with armourer to recruit samurai and one province with fletchers for bow samurai. The built up for these armies is so slow that my economy outgrows the upkeep.

I'm now aiming for 4 stacks around 18 plus a smaller stack defending my homeland (playing as Shimazu) and lingering below the 20 provinces threshold to avoid Realm Divide before I have this.

[Eddie G]

Originally posted by Geronimo:

Originally posted by Eddie G:

I have as many armies as I have generals. I think multiple smaller armies is better than concentrating your force into 1 or 2 armies. For one thing you can defend more territory, which doesn't become an issue really until you get a few provinces. I believe they give you 2 generals at the start for a reason. As soon as I take my first province, I start slowing building my second army while keeping the main strong. It's a slower paced game, and requires patience, but I find it pays off.

I don't think you're playing on very hard. If you're facing full stacks with a myriad of warrior monks, bow ronins, or just heavy infantry you're done without a mature stack. And I'm talking about the end game (small campaign), that phase in which you have about 20 provinces and you're close to Kyoto while fighting everyone everywhere.

Actually I do play on very hard, I also have myriads of hours playing this game too,. Trust me though, I learned to play with multiple armies from the Empire forum, and it was true for that game and it's true for shogun 2. I don't expect everyone to be able to play the way I do and still win, but I know of at least 2 other old timers that play the way I do. Ultimately it's a game and it's all you as to how you want to experience it. Whatever works for you is all that counts, in the end a win is a win.

[Sn3z]

Originally posted by Geronimo:

Originally posted by Sn3z:

Its 19 units + general in any scenario, ashigaru are supposed to be used to bloat out your army to keep upkeep costs down, even if you using bow samurai you should still be using bow ashigaru, you would ideally have 50:50.

in rush comps less yari ashigaru means less frontage, not a risk to take because you want to envelope, especially if AI is camped and you are attacking.

Why not go for reducing upkeep cost skill in the general tree I sometimes max it out, its better the more upkeep cost your paying per stack. or just go to high taxation and leave it there, nullifying the public order, for more map presence. High taxation will get basically get you another stack in the end.

Well, I'm going for a different approach. I only use my home province with armourer to recruit samurai and one province with fletchers for bow samurai. The built up for these armies is so slow that my economy outgrows the upkeep.

I play the same way, it counters the fact you have to pull so many units together on the map if you start recruiting certain units for different provinces the game becomes tiresome, plus generals spawn in home province as well.
of course road development becomes important only to the front line.

I rarely use fletchers, i sometimes take the eco upgrade if I have taken the province mid game anyway.

However, A case could be made that the incredible ball busting buffs you get via armoury and flecthers, would mean you could technically run fewer units in stacks because the units are jacked, but I have actually have no desire to try and test that out, its not how I play anyway, it sounds riveting. I do feel that the buffs if used properly were suppose to give the player more control over his upkeep because as said you would need less units, as your progressing but its not used or even thought about in this way at all.

I went down this rabbit hole in warhammer about how much buffs would I need to save army slots and I gave up to many variables to consider. Time was better spent making eco more efficient and redesigning army comps to be run cheaper but have a playstyle like rush or defense and lean into those per battle, would allow me to run cheaper units sometimes and win battle more tactically.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Eddie G:

I have as many armies as I have generals. I think multiple smaller armies is better than concentrating your force into 1 or 2 armies. For one thing you can defend more territory, which doesn't become an issue really until you get a few provinces. I believe they give you 2 generals at the start for a reason. As soon as I take my first province, I start slowing building my second army while keeping the main strong. It's a slower paced game, and requires patience, but I find it pays off.

Well, in fact I'm adopting your strategy now with two smaller armies mainly consisting out of peasants, and slowly building them to full size after about turn 30. This is because I'm planning the recruit of all samurai on the home province with armourer and the bow samurai on the fletcher province. The build up is slower but your economy is solid because it's ahead of upkeep instead of trying to keep up with the costs. I'm building my 3rd stack with about 18 provinces and keep building until Realm Divide and then I'm gonna make another run for it.

[Eddie G]

Originally posted by Geronimo:

Originally posted by Eddie G:

I have as many armies as I have generals. I think multiple smaller armies is better than concentrating your force into 1 or 2 armies. For one thing you can defend more territory, which doesn't become an issue really until you get a few provinces. I believe they give you 2 generals at the start for a reason. As soon as I take my first province, I start slowing building my second army while keeping the main strong. It's a slower paced game, and requires patience, but I find it pays off.

Well, in fact I'm adopting your strategy now with two smaller armies mainly consisting out of peasants, and slowly building them to full size after about turn 30. This is because I'm planning the recruit of all samurai on the home province with armourer and the bow samurai on the fletcher province. The build up is slower but your economy is solid because it's ahead of upkeep instead of trying to keep up with the costs. I'm building my 3rd stack with about 18 provinces and keep building until Realm Divide and then I'm gonna make another run for it.

One thing I do, that may be unique is, I never lose samurai units. I merge my ashigaru units, but I let my samurai units replenish before using them again. I recruit samurai on turn 1 if I can, and only recruit them when I have the money to do so. I maintain a 1,000 income +'-, and prioritize building, when I got some change I recruit a unit or two. Having 1 or two provinces to concentrate on them with buffs makes it a powerful army with multiple stacks of mostly samurai when you hit realm divide. That's key too, knowing when you are going to hit realm divide, and stopping until you build up your infrastructure, and place your navies and armies in place for the end game.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Eddie G:

One thing I do, that may be unique is, I never lose samurai units. I merge my ashigaru units, but I let my samurai units replenish before using them again. I recruit samurai on turn 1 if I can, and only recruit them when I have the money to do so. I maintain a 1,000 income +'-, and prioritize building, when I got some change I recruit a unit or two. Having 1 or two provinces to concentrate on them with buffs makes it a powerful army with multiple stacks of mostly samurai when you hit realm divide. That's key too, knowing when you are going to hit realm divide, and stopping until you build up your infrastructure, and place your navies and armies in place for the end game.

I always let them replenish too, but sometimes a unit gets completely destroyed though, especially in the right top corner of a fort assault and the enemy concentrates its launch there. Anyway, if you replenish, a second ashigaru army combined with matchlocks and samurai bow archers and only a few heavy infantry (if you can spare them in the early phase) is handy as a defensive occupation army for provinces just captured and then your main army, which is replenished sufficiently can push on. But I find that after you settled a good base of about 8-10 provinces, the push towards 18 provinces is rather easy. And then it becomes extremely hard after Realm Divide.

[jackeddiegouber]

Originally posted by Geronimo:

Originally posted by Eddie G:

One thing I do, that may be unique is, I never lose samurai units. I merge my ashigaru units, but I let my samurai units replenish before using them again. I recruit samurai on turn 1 if I can, and only recruit them when I have the money to do so. I maintain a 1,000 income +'-, and prioritize building, when I got some change I recruit a unit or two. Having 1 or two provinces to concentrate on them with buffs makes it a powerful army with multiple stacks of mostly samurai when you hit realm divide. That's key too, knowing when you are going to hit realm divide, and stopping until you build up your infrastructure, and place your navies and armies in place for the end game.

I always let them replenish too, but sometimes a unit gets completely destroyed though, especially in the right top corner of a fort assault and the enemy concentrates its launch there. Anyway, if you replenish, a second ashigaru army combined with matchlocks and samurai bow archers and only a few heavy infantry (if you can spare them in the early phase) is handy as a defensive occupation army for provinces just captured and then your main army, which is replenished sufficiently can push on. But I find that after you settled a good base of about 8-10 provinces, the push towards 18 provinces is rather easy. And then it becomes extremely hard after Realm Divide.

That's when the stopping point is, I talked about earlier (Eddie G.) depending on the campaign length around 18 provinces is when you want to stop and prepare for realm divide.
Earlier for a short. Or you can monitor the fame meter, when there is just a sliver left, don't capture that last province for awhile. The more time you take to prepare, the easier the end game is going to be. When you feel ready, all your pieces in place, then take that last province, and make the final run.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by jackeddiegouber:

That's when the stopping point is, I talked about earlier (Eddie G.) depending on the campaign length around 18 provinces is when you want to stop and prepare for realm divide.
Earlier for a short. Or you can monitor the fame meter, when there is just a sliver left, don't capture that last province for awhile. The more time you take to prepare, the easier the end game is going to be. When you feel ready, all your pieces in place, then take that last province, and make the final run.

I accidently hit realm divide on taking the 17th province, but with my 4th stack almost battle ready I was prepared. For some strange reason one of my allies remains loyal although I'm almost there. And I managed to sink a few full stack armies. It's too bad though that you can't fully spy on what units you actually sink unless you have a spy on your fleet, but who does that eh.