Playing Hattori on Legendary

[Ghadaro]

I was originally putting some of this in a help thread on how to play Hattori but as suggested by Talamare I'm moving it to its own topic.

This is my first time playing Hattori and they seem to be considered one of the hardest armies to play but I'm reasonably confident I can still get a first time victory on Legendary difficulty.
I will explain why I'm making a lot of decisions and what I would consider my alternatives so that it makes more sense to newer players. If you have any questions on how or why I did anything please ask away and I warn you I make a lot of silly mistakes but I will generally point them out. Alternatively if you want to criticise anything please do, I still have a lot to learn and improve on

I'm playing a short campaign on Legendary with 60min battle time. I'm pausing periodically in battle to write so I wont be using drop in battles.
For those unfamiliar with legendary difficulty it removes extra battle features like the map, enemy info and the ability to move around throwing out orders while paused. Most significantly its an iron man mode so if I screw up I can't reload an earlier save.


First thing that strikes me as the Hattori is the initially open position yet limited expansion options.
At the same time you have expensive troops so you need to expand.

Ideally I would like to push into Yamato then expand to hold Ise around to Settsu. This will give a solid front with only a small reserve force required at the coast.

Going into the diplomacy screen however shows a problem, the Tsutsui are allied to the Hatakeyama so attacking them will likely lead to a chain of war declarations.

The next best option would be to take Omi since the Asai start weak and have no allies. This also has its drawbacks however. Omi is in an open position and would give contact to the Ikko Ikki (dislike just about everybody) and bring me closer to the Oda (potentially quick expander and aggressor)

Omi is the easy and safe option initially but playing legendary its iron man rules so I can't experiment and reload and I really don't want to spread my territories in a vulnerable line. As such I'm going to take the hard start and go for Yamato.

Using the diplomacy screen I can see from the Tsutsui what regions the Hatakeyama own by looking for bold green. I'm not concerned with the 2 distant provinces but I have a ninja in a good location to reach Kii or Kawachi to make contact.


Turn 1:

First stop the family screen. My family contains 1 general and a young son so I'll adopt the general into the family for +1 loyalty and allow me to marry him for a diplomatic boost.

<If you go for Omi instead of Yamato ignore the next two paragraphs and move your Ninja to Omi, your army or Iga instead and avoid making contact with the Hatakeyama for now>

Moving my ninja to the road between Kyoto and Yamato reveals Kawachi giving me contact with Hatakeyama, I'll leave him there for now

I want to open Tsutsui for attack so I pay Hatakeyama 1607 (don't expect me to work out every price to the exact max or min) to break their alliance.. ouch. This will stall my economic upgrades but if I leave this deal until turn 2 the price is almost guaranteed to increase and I might not be able to afford it. (I didn't even look at what the Tsutsui would want to break the alliance so might have been able to save money there)

The Shogunate are willing to pay me 1000 for 10 turns of military access and the Asai are willing to pay 500 for access so thats most of my money recovered. The Asai are also happy to offer me a trade agreement and an alliance. I will accept the trade for now and leave the alliance but I should probably take both.
I might push onto Ise quite quickly so I'll leave the Kitabatake for now but it might be better to make a trade agreement.
I move my ninja to Yamato to sabotage the army for experience which failed.
My daimyo can join the army for protection and march towards Yamato *War Declared on Tsutsui*

I build improved irrigation and train 1 yari ashigaru, this should allow me to start Burakumin village next turn.
Lastly I start research on bushido for the morale bonus and set taxes to high ignoring the -2 happiness

<If you chose to go for Omi first the Tsutsui will pay 500 for access and will accept trade if you combine it with marrying their daughter. You will also have a good 3500 to play with>

I'm going to forgo recruitment for this turn and build my improved irrigation (gold and food) and burakumin village (gold and ninja ranks)


Turn 2:

Tax rate dropped to normal
I build Burakumin Village
Sabotage the enemy army at Yamato again, success. 3 koku left, that was a tight squeeze
Daimyo splits from army to move as close to Yamato as possible, army attacks keeping daimyo as reinforcement. I could hold siege to make them come to me but I want income asap so I start the attack.

I have battle time 60 mins so I'm going to snipe as many melee troops as I can. Bow and general will deploy same side as the daimyo will appear compensating posiion due to a mountain. Yari samurai are placed opposite
and a yari ashigaru to either side. I'll use one of the mellee units to distract the enemy archers.
Archers made a beeline for mine so I kept a general outside their range to distract them while my daimyo and bows skirted around and began controlled fire using inspire as a steroid. After emptying my arrows a yari ashigaru unit climbed the walls at one side while my remaining troops waited at the gate opposite. As the ashigaru reached the top my bow ashigaru and yari ashigaru climbed either side of the gate I wanted to capture.
Forgot to have a general waiting by the distraction army to inspire so that unit routed early allowing the enemy to meet my other two units before I held the gate. Rushed my samurai up the wall to help deal with the swords and had my general engage the enemy daimyo who had tried to flank me then chase the fleeing unit to rally.
After killing the sword retainers captured the gate and moved on to help with the enemy yari ashigaru. Had my daimyo charge the bow ashigaru to stop them firing and rushed my general and rallied yari ashigaru to assist. For the sake of forgetting to inspire my decoy unit I suffered 400 losses. I probably could have halved that but at least I have the castle intact.

Daimyo moved in to help keep the peace, I'll ignore the unhappiness as it will sorted next turn.

I give Hatakeyama military access now that our borders meet for 2000. Guess I could have trained 2 ashigaru and kept taxes normal last turn
Lastly I train 1 yari ashigaru in both cities and improved irrigation in Yamato
I misclicked in the armies tab and merged my yari ashigaru units so I now need to move my ashigaru from Iga towards Yamato. -3 happiness but still not going to exempt from taxes.

Turn 3:

I don't desperately need fire arrows but due to the high upkeep of Hattori units I do need more money so time to research Way of Chi, I then have a choice betweeen going for Zen or Equal Fields (needs Todofuken).
I'll likely be going for equal fields unless I see a need for a monk so I'm setting fields as research target.

I move my lone ashigaru to Yamato making the happiness neutral.

Giving Hatakeyama military access gave me some much needed income but it means if I attack them in the next

10 turns everybody will get something like -50 to relations due to deal breaking. Checking the Kitabatake in diplomacy screen however has revealed a problem, they have now allied with the Oda. I can't attack yet anyway as I want to keep the taxes coming from Yamato and lack the troops to split my forces.

The safe option now would be a sake den in Yamato with some ashigaru. A stronger military reduces the chance that the enemy will declare war and the gold and happiness from the sake den will help.

Looking at the Asai they have entered war with the Ikko Ikki, the Hatakeyama are now at war with the Miyoshi so they are a bit less likely to randomly declare war on me, besides I've already made plenty of silly mistakes so far so why not take a gamble.

I've opted to upgrade the castle at Yamato. The garrison will be a nice bonus but what I'm really after is the space for a market and sake den. I want another ninja when the burakumin village is complete and I want a metsuke to help lift my income. Since the Sake den takes 2 turns to build and I have 3 turns left until the Burakumin village finishes I can leave that until next turn and still get an early +2 ninja.

Finally I walk my ninja past Ise to scout the area and prepare to meet the Oda. After finishing the move I realised I could have poked my head in to look at the castle then returned to Yamato for the passive experience.

Turn 4:

I call my ninja back to establish a spy network. I want to save money where possible for now so he can rely on the slow passive experience.
The Oda have been destroyed, they either die early or expand fast and fortunately for me I can now push into Ise if I desire.
Had the Oda still been alive I would have aimed to break their alliance before attacking.

I'm going to take another gamble and get the sake den in Yamato. This will again mean I can't train any units so I'm leaving myself in a very vulnerable position right now. With a bit of luck it will pay off but worst case I'll have to turtle for a bit and try to end any wars fast before it chains.

[Ghadaro]

Turn 5:

Short and sweet I'm just going to train 3 yari ashigaru (2 in Iga, 1 in Yamato) and let my research continue on to Todofuken.

Turn 6:

The Ikko Ikki captured Omi. If it was anybody else I wouldn't really worry but whatever deals I get into place I expect to be stabbed in the back.

I start a trade deal with the Ikko Ikki and notice they are not only enemies with the Sakai but a Sakai army is marching on Omi. If this province changes hands again I might be able to make a tidy profit.
I sell military access to the Ikko Ikki for 2050.

Yamato gets a market and Iga gets a ninja (starting at rank 3). I want this ninja to focus on assassinating.

My ninja at Yamato takes 1 point in sabateur and 1 in spy before moving to Ise and trying to assassinate a general (43%). Success.

My new ninja takes 2 points in assassinating and 2 in exotic weapons.
My army at Iga march towards Yamato, next turn the repression from castle and sake den will match unhappiness freeing my whole current army for assault.

I set 3 more yari ashigaru to train and end the turn

Turn 7:

The Kitabatake army stands just outside the castle unfortunately my ninja fails to sabotage. I declare war and attack Ise using the troops from Yamato ticking the night battle box to prevent reinforcement.
Since the enemy only has a samurai retainer I sit my bow ashigaru by the wall using inspire as a steroid. 0 losses

I now have a border with Saito and Tokugawa. Both are hostile towards trade so I sell military access to Tokugawa and Saito for 1900 each.

My army that previously left Iga moves to Yamato, unfortunately for the time being I have 3 provinces potentially in the line of fire. The Kitabatake Rebels have a larger force than mine in Ise so hopefully they will go for the castle.

I train 2 yari ashigaru and 1 bow ashigaru. I build a stronghold and pilgrim hostel in Ise and a Stronghold in Iga. If I screw up an ambush using Kisho placement the morale bonus from the Pilgrim hostel will help minimise damage.

With no money left the ninja at Iga sets up a spy network and I end the turn

Turn 8:

Kitabatake Rebels attack.
The enemy arrives with 3 yaris to one side and the rest of the army to the front so I place my bow ashigaru to the side with the yaris and pull back my melee troops for now. As the enemy nears my retainer and ashigaru charge to the walls with 1 unit waiting behind my bow and 2 reserve. As the side yari ashigaru reach the bottom of the wall I swap my bow with the unit behind and since the enemy haven't used fire arrows it should be safe to load them into the gatehouse facing the enemy bows. One of my reserve units was left too close, seeing it getting shot down I pull it behind the keep with only 56 men remaining.
The generals use inspire as a damage steroid at the 2 extremes of my line. The reserves rush in as the enemy starts wavering to help force the route. With the main army fleeing I reform the retainers and yari samurai on the walls and pull back my yari ashigaru as reserves.
As soon as the enemy general is climbing the walls my reserves and generals charge out the gates. My ashigaru each pick a bow unit to charge head on from the front gate while the generals use the side gate to flank the enemy. I also stop my bow firing to prevent friendly fire.
1698 kills - 287 losses (would have been closer to 150 if I had been more careful with my reserves)

My ninja at Ise fails to sabotage the rebel army.
I send my daimyo, general and largest unit of yari ashigaru to kill the remaining 3 bow ashigaru.

Autoresolve gives me 34 losses. My troops pull back to Ise, I use my weakest yari ashigaru to replenish the others (and I actually wanted to this time.. go me) I then move my Daimyo on towards Yamato.

I want to have 4 bow ashigaru defending at Ise so I start another 2 training and move the bow from Yamato towards Ise.

I've just noticed Ise came with an archer dojo and since I have the DLC I can aim for bandits (same upkeep as bow ashigaru with a smaller unit, higher accuracy and morale and the ability to fire without breaking stealth). I love the sound of them but I don't want to rely on a unit many people might not have access to so I'll stick with regular units. Samurai archers from the dojo would be very nice especially for siege defence but their upkeep is double the bow ashigaru so they really aren't beneficial yet. I have 3 territories open and need numbers to shift the Hatakeyama from my borders. As such I'm going to tear down the dojo.

The Ikko Ikki have held their ground at Omi so far so I'm going to research Zen Next. I can assassinate their monks but need to be able to counter their temples.

As I want to be ready to attack the Hatakeyama I move my ninja from Iga to Yamato and end the turn

[Ghadaro]

Turn 9:

I move my Daimyo next to Yamato, the province has a sake den and market so there are 2 negative traits that generals can develop if they spend too long in the castle.

In Ise I am tempted to build a sword school since the charge bonus of Katana samurai should synergise well with Kisho training.
I've been using up a lot of food surplus though so I build a market for now to provide some growth and income. A market costs 850 and gives 200 money +5 growth per turn. In 7 turns (3 to build and 4 after) it will have paid for itself and the growth will provide a lasting bonus.

Hatakeyama have 3 turns of military access left after which I can declare war so for now I can't make an offensive move without a fleet. I have a poor position to access overseas trade and want to focus on securing my current position so a fleet right now would be an unneccessary expense.

All yaris and the general in Ise head for Yamato, the general will stay outside same as the Daimyo. My bow at Yamato heads to Ise which will give me 4 bow ashigaru and the garrison force. Ise has a long road to the castle so I have time to reinforce if the AI declares war.

My ninja at Ise heads to Yamato ready to help with the Hatakeyama.
My other ninja tries to assassinate a Hatakeyama general. 63% chance. Success.
I can now see they have a stack of 11 yari ashigaru and 7 bow ashigaru lead by their Daimyo at Kii. I could have done with a few more men but the faster I get the ninja levelled the easier I'll find it later keeping enemy agents under control.

I move my army at Iga towards Yamato and end turn

Turn 10:

I have space in both Iga and Ise now, Ise wants a temple which I can't build until next turn.
Iga is not being influenced by Ikko Ikki religion so I can build a market.

The Hatakeyama have moved another stack to Kii and I'm out of money so I pull my ninja back to Yamato.

Turn 11:

The Saito are wiped out by the Takeda who now have a stack right on my border and my military access to the Shogunate has expired.
The Shogunate pay 2250 for military access, the Takeda pay 1600 and have no interest in trade.

Ise builds a temple (monks here will start rank 3)
Yamato hires a metsuke (forgot I had the market)
I train a yari ashigaru and 3 bow ashigaru (the yari at Ise for the morale bonus)
All of my bows are currently positioned at what will be considered my rear guard for the time being, I want a few for attack.

With Zen complete I go for Equal fields.

Turn 11:

I now have a market at Ise so that gives me another metsuke.
Yamato is my richest province so I place a metsuke there to increase the tax.

The Hatakeyama are allied to the Date but I can't afford to break them up so I'm just going to declare war and make my move. Their Daimyo along with his stack is missing but the stack that had joined him earlier is near kii.
I send a ninja into the forest, spot nothing but can't reach the beach. I assume his army are hiding.
My other ninja moves to the bridge near Kawachi to try to block incase the Daimyo's army marched towards Settsu. They have a metsuke in Settsu so it could prove fatal for my ninja.

War declared on Hatakeyama. Date didn't join although we haven't made contact yet. Realising my army can't reach Kii or Kawachi and it's currently winter I move my general and the troops from Yamato to the border of Kawachi. My Daimyo enters Yamato and the new recruits from Iga and Ise head for Yamato.

Turn 12:

My metsuke enters Ise
One ninja tries to sabotage the visible Hatakeyama army (65%) failed
The other tries to assassinate the visible enemy metsuke (78%) ninja executed... at least they start at rank 3(I very rarely lose agents due to failed actions this was purely a bad luck moment)

Iga trains a ninja and metsuke.

My recruits from a couple turns back finish their move to Yamato

Looking at the map I can see the Hatakeyama have been attacking Shikoku which explains the missing army.
I move my Daimyo to join my army and attack the enemy stack currently sitting next to Kawachi using a night fight. I'm already outnumbered, so night means they have 2 units in Kawachi which can't fight and will also give a stealth and morale advantage to tie into my deployment bonus.

The enemy has more archers but I have more yaris. This will work well in my favour if I have good deployment options.
A hill sits to the left of the battlefield and a forest to the right. Both are near the red deployment zone so the enemy will likely make a beeline for one of them. I don't like my position to ambush either so I'm going to do something very simply. Half my Yaris behind the enemy deployment zone, half in front. All will be out in the open and visible. My bow can start near the hill and rush to grab the position while my generals who have to start in the normal deployment zone make a mad dash to help get within area of influence.

The enemy set up further to my left than I anticipated leaving me out of position and made a rush for the hill. My troops behind ran to try to match their line, the troops to the front wheeled around to approach from the side. My bow ashigaru (the 1 unit in a good position) climbed the nearest hill and started firing causing a couple of the enemy bows to stop early and return fire. This left them vulnerable to a charge from one of my yari's wheeling in from the front and one from the group currntly rushing across from behind. As they rushed troops back to support I was able to collapse my lines across creating a scissor blade effect and forcing the majority of their army into a quick route. The stray bow units were dealt with by 1 unit breaking away to pin each until further support arrived. This was created by peeling away troops as their targets routed. My generals reached the area of the battle but didn't really add much in the end.

1592 kills 302 losses.

I seperate my Daimyo from the army and have the army hold Kawachi under seige.

I have no surplus food so I double check taking Kawachi wont leave me with a defecit.

I recruit a monk at Ise and a Yari Ashigaru at Yamato. (Income is getting very low now but Kii is currently

undefended so I plan to march for it next turn)

[easytarget]

Oh yes, definitely, I feel like I was there reading a big wall of text.

Do go on.

[Ghadaro]

Steam formatting is rather buggy. Half the bbcode it claims to allow it actually doesn't

[Crim]

Amazing read, will definitely begin selling military access for cash

As I read I feel like one of my biggest problems was challenging Ikko Ikki early for Asai/Omi, seems like if you let them keep it they won't really be as aggressive against you. Very nice