[Sho 2] Toughest Clan to Play?

[mltnschroeder]

I initially thought it was maybe Tokugawa, because they start as a vassal and so can't take full advantage of diplomacy. But they actually start w/ horses and they get a diplo bonus, so they can find trade partners fairly easily, and then arrange some marriages to get friendly relations. When I played the campaign, Imagawa remained steadfast allies (and overlords) protecting the eastern borders while I overran central Japan, right up until RD.

But in the end I think it might be Mori. Everyone wants a piece of Mori, and they get a crap ship bonus and have nothing to trade at start. Plus they sit square along the main invasion route between Kyushu and Honshu, so holding the straight there is a constant necessity. If you attack along a 1-front war, you'll probably end up w/ a long strung-out indefensible collection of territories, only to get simultaneously slammed by Ouchi/Shoni from one side and Yamama/Okko Ikki on the other. I was constantly dealing with the threat of a 2- or even 3-front war while only having enough cash to field 1 proper army.

It took me several restarts to finally form a defensible territory strong enough to hold out vs 3 or 4 enemies at once - I had to betray the Shoni to grab their horses for trade plus sack some towns to raise cash, leaving a dishonorable stain on my daimyo. The Kikkawa remained solid albeit weak allies who eventually got wiped out by the Urukami. Luckily I managed to stonewall long enough to pay off the Urukami and Yamana to make peace and start trading, creating a buffer against the Ikko Ikki, who by that point were terrifyingly huge having overrun the entire central Japan... and declaring Mori lands were next. Yamana eventually got smashed, but Urukami amazingly solo-conquered the Ikko Ikki back to 2 provinces! This gave me the breathing room I needed to deal with the rising Ouchi and Shimazu powers on Kyushu. At some point my dishonorable daimyo dies of natural causes, reinstating our clan's reputation for his honorable son.

I went full-out metzuke & ninja secret war, burning enemy crops and executing any enemy agent that showed up anywhere near my lands. By the end, they were like demi-gods, getting 90%+ odds on mission success! My metsuke managed to bribe one entire Shimazu army to switch sides while my ninja sabotaged their main death stack army of enhanced shimazu-katana samurai for 4 full seasons while I gutted, overran and vassalized their clan homeland using the traitors! Later, after assassinating most of their family members, I trapped their katana-army in a siege using my reinforced turncoat samurai, and wiped them out for good.

It was a fun game, and had I been a bit quicker in taking Kyoto after RD, I could have won while keeping my trusty (and fearsome) Urukami allies. When they finally joined my enemies it was already too late, and 2 seasons later Mori Takamoto was declared Shogun in Fall of 1669.

[BastardSword]

Ikko Ikki is by far the toughest clan. It forces you to unlearn a lot of things and use different strategies from the other clans. Everyone hates you so you're always at war. You don't have metsukes so you lose out on a lot of extra money. Ikko ikki monks cause rebellions easily but if you cause too many rebellions you'll trigger realm divide too early. You never have enough money so you have to depend on ashigaru armies. They're in central Japan so they're surrounded by very aggressive AI clans.

Next hardest is Uesugi. Early on in the campaign literally everyone around them declares war on them and you have to fight off full stack after full stack. Your starting province is poor and massive and can be invaded from every direction, so you can't easily strike at the enemy without leaving your backdoor open. All you can really do is ally with everyone you can, wait for Takeda and Hojo to destroy all their best armies at your home castle, then go neutralize Takeda and Hojo. Once you manage this extremely tough start, they're not too tough.

Hattori are also hated by everyone which makes things tough, and all their units are more expensive. Once you get some good armies and start abusing night attack and kisho training, they're not so bad.

Takeda are probably the only clan I'd really say are medium difficulty. It's easy to make trade agreements with their horsies, but they're in a poor economic area and it can take a while to build up their economy. Like the other central Japanese clans they're in a rough area with lots of aggressive playable AI clans, so you're rarely at peace, and you can be invaded from a lot of different directions.

Honestly all the other clans are pretty easy, but the RNG in the game means that every campaign is unique. But for the most part I find them easy. This is all based on me playing on Hard by the way.

Oda is easy because you can just depend on cheap ashigaru to save the day. Long yari ashigaru are great.

Hojo is easy because for some reason everyone leaves them alone. Sometimes they can have a tough campaign though being near the aggressive central Japan clans.

Chosokabe are easy because they are so isolated, and their bows are great. Shimazu are easy because they're so isolated. Same for Date. Clans like these are easy because you only have one front to worry about, instead of 2 or 3.

Tokugawa is easy because everyone leaves them alone, even more so than Hojo. I've had Tokugawa campaigns where literally nothing happened for a zillion turns because nobody declared war on me, everyone wanted to trade for my horsies, and I just sat there building up my economy and doing nothing forever and ever. It can be a bit tough getting out from under Imagawa, but usually they get stupid and declare war on you, and they're easy to defeat. Always remember that the playable clans are far tougher and more cunning than NPC garbage clans like Imagawa.

Mori seem tough at first but are easy because they're far from any aggressive clans. Chosokabe and Shimazu never threaten them and can be easily wiped out. Best strategy is to move your first army north to wipe out or at least neutralize Amako, then build another army back at home because Kikkawa and possibly Ouchi will invade you. Fight them off, then go conquer Kyushu and Shikoku and you'll be rich and powerful and ready to win the game.

Otomo have one of the toughest starts in the game, but once you can defeat Ouchi and Shoni it's clear sailing. Just abuse missionary rebellions and Eurotrash trade ships and the game becomes pitifully easy. Really if you just want to break the game and win on easy mode, just go Christian with any clan. It's so easy to cause rebellions and neutralize other clans.

[mltnschroeder]

I play on very hard. Till now have found the early game for legendary setting too intense, I just don't have the reflexes and battlefield awareness to issue commands properly in real-time. Though I'd like to give it another try.

I found Shimazu (or whichever clan dominates Kyushu) to be a major threat as Mori. Once they have locked-up Kyushu, you are 100% surely their next target, and they tend to pile on to any multi-clan war vs Mori. The Shimazu field a death-stack of katana samurai early on lead by a 5-star general, that if you take head-on proves unstoppable. W/o your own samurai stack, which you can't really afford early on, you'll have to find a clever way to fend them off. Keeping them isolated on Kyushu is the probably the easiest early answer, but that means you concede that whole island and are stuck in southern Honshu.

I do recall Uesugi playing exactly as you say, though it was the slow reinforcement rate that proved the biggest initial challenge iirc. But I don't consider them the hardest, since they start vis-a-vis Honma, who are sitting on a gold mine - which should be the first target. Plus Uesugi can attack into the isolated north or capture Kaga and use that as a power base. Since there is nothing of real strategic value in Takeda territory, I found the lure to conquer them to be a red herring. Just let Takeda break their troops against your fortress in Echigo... they will eventually sue for peace if never be friendly. The distances are big, but that works in your favor too, as you can see the enemy coming for miles. Plus the AI is a strategic dunce, often w/ the long distances leaving its cities unguarded and vulnerable.

I'll have to try Ikko Ikki. I reasoned they must not be the hardest, since they always seem to expand into a major military threat under the AI. Plus they start w/ the smithy at Kaga, which is a big quality advantage. And Monks rock.

Hattori sound cool too... thanks for the tip/

[Eddie G]

I think the Uesugi are the toughest. based on hard difficulty. Followed closely by the Ikko Ikki. The Mori are my favorite clan, partially because I was in the navy. But as the Mori, yes you have a tough strategic position, on the land side. You can easily dominate the seas as the Mori, even after realm divide. So, i think the Mori are the easiest clan. Next to the Oda.
I think the Takeda is probably the 3rd toughest clan. On hard, you will end up with multiple fronts, after only capturing 2 or 3 provinces, and North Shinano, is a bigger territory than Echigo is, with 5 entry points.

[eyecarrot19]

I agree on Hattori and Ikko-Ikki being the hardest, on other side Uesugi is relatively easy, if you manage to win in diplomacy.
The most hardcore I found is in FOTS campaign, where diplomacy is really broken

[Eddie G]

The thing to remember about the Mori, is to make sure you keep producing ships. Your first priortity should be to take the Amako province to the North. Every campaign I play the Kikkawa declare war on you. So I tried declaring war on them on the 1st turn. This plays into your clan strength, because the Kikkawa have a Navy upgrade province, it's a perfect place to build a sword dojo, for you wako raiders. or whatever they are called. So I take the Amako province to the North, and then just hold it, and take out the Kikkawa first. The Matsuda or Urakami will Trade/Ally with you. after you defeat the Kikkawa. I leave the Ouchi alone, until I have finished the Amako. I do not go for Kyushu until the Ouchi are defeated. By then I am solid on the East, for awhile, and I can concentrate on whoever controls Kyushu. If it happens to be the Shimazu, all you really got to do is kick their ass on the seas. They will ask for peace before you even share a border with them. This is true about any clan you are at war with, that does not share a border. A stong navy is important in this game, because it affects how willing clans are to go to war with you. As the Mori, as long as you dominate the seas, you can dictate your own path to victory. Other clans will test you, but if you consistantly win battles at sea, they will ask for peace.

[easytarget]

Don't know that I'd pick one.

But I would venture to suggest clans located in the central part of the island have a tougher time, if for no other reason they're facing the very real prospect of multi front wars.

[Sn3z]

Uesugi can be reduced down to can you potentially fight 3-4-5 clans at the same time and prey their armies come in cycles, and not together otherwise your in trouble, With Uesugi its important to rush gold mine Island and recruit katana's in your capital.

Ikko Ikki is probably the hardest because the diplomatic sitaution never settle's down unlike Uesugi and due to geography when expanding its hard to defend on all sides, often expansions will leave you completely exposed. The only redeeming thing is loan swords which are so OP. You can play all game on just them.

[easytarget]

Not like anyone on the island happily embraces Christianity either.

[Eat3n]

Uesugi and Mori are the two clans I’ve repeatedly tried and been unable to win with. Oda and Tokugawa are hard but at least have some protection so they don’t get immediately overrun by enemies. Uesugi and Mori not so much.

Hojo are rated “easy” but every game I’ve played I get stuck having to betray my ally Takeda and then lose.

[eyecarrot19]

Originally posted by Eat3n:

Uesugi and Mori are the two clans I’ve repeatedly tried and been unable to win with. Oda and Tokugawa are hard but at least have some protection so they don’t get immediately overrun by enemies. Uesugi and Mori not so much.

Hojo are rated “easy” but every game I’ve played I get stuck having to betray my ally Takeda and then lose.

diplomacy is your go. suggest peace to clan, who are at war with many, afraid to loose a province to you, army or already have taken enough damage. Try to bargain also for gold. Vassalize if they have 1 province left. If not, try to make them disband their alliances and trades, it will make their relations with neighbors harder and it can provoke to war. Abuse military access and milk it for money. After every enemy defeats you can use the diplomacy to fix your victory. Check diplomacy tab and look at relations with other clans, if you have a shared enemy with someone. Weaker clan might want you to join your alliance, but won't suggest you themself. You should do that and see, if they able to join your wars or pay money for that alliance. With that, Uesugi or Hojo is not too hard

[Eat3n]

Originally posted by F31.58:

Originally posted by Eat3n:

Uesugi and Mori are the two clans I’ve repeatedly tried and been unable to win with. Oda and Tokugawa are hard but at least have some protection so they don’t get immediately overrun by enemies. Uesugi and Mori not so much.

Hojo are rated “easy” but every game I’ve played I get stuck having to betray my ally Takeda and then lose.

diplomacy is your go. suggest peace to clan, who are at war with many, afraid to loose a province to you, army or already have taken enough damage. Try to bargain also for gold. Vassalize if they have 1 province left. If not, try to make them disband their alliances and trades, it will make their relations with neighbors harder and it can provoke to war. Abuse military access and milk it for money. After every enemy defeats you can use the diplomacy to fix your victory. Check diplomacy tab and look at relations with other clans, if you have a shared enemy with someone. Weaker clan might want you to join your alliance, but won't suggest you themself. You should do that and see, if they able to join your wars or pay money for that alliance. With that, Uesugi or Hojo is not too hard

Diplomacy was never really an issue. It was trying to expand between the inevitable Date rise and Takeda, one of them always ends up kicking me in the teeth.

[BastardSword]

When playing on Hard, for me the early game is centered around the paradox of getting two armies while being poor. If I only have one army, no matter how good it is, I can't really move that army offensively because it leaves the rest of my land vulnerable to easy invasion. If I use that army defensively then I can never move, never expand and never build up my economy (which I need to buy more armies). I find that having two full stacks ASAP is the best thing to get my campaign going. And if I have two full stacks, the AI is more likely to leave me alone usually.

In general it's not a big deal, but some clans really suffer from this scenario, Uesugi in particular. Their starting province is poor and all the provinces around them are too. "Just go to Sado" everyone says, but sending an army there just leaves you vulnerable at home, plus it takes quite a bit of money and time to make Sado profitable.

As I said, for Uesugi I find that the only thing that works is to ally with everyone you can on the first turn or so, then hope that at least some of those alliances stick. At first the small clans around you like Anegakoji and Jinbo will bother you. Later on Hojo and Takeda will definitely declare war on you, and Ashina and Satomi too probably. Eventually Ikko Ikki will get into the mix too.

Only thing I've found that works is ASAP get one full stack and just camp out in Echigo castle, with maybe 3 katana samurai. The NPC clans are easy enough to defeat, and Hojo will probably only send basic armies against you. Defeat all these clans then make peace with them and maybe ally with them if you can just to keep them off your back. Takeda is the main threat because they may send 2 full stacks against you, hopefully not. Destroy their armies then finally you can send out your army and start taking over Takeda's lands. Meanwhile start building up a second army in Echigo to defend it. You probably won't be able to take over all of Takeda's lands before another clan like Hojo or Oda or Satomi declares war on you, so just make peace with Takeda and go deal with the bigger threat.

Once things calm down and you reduce the strength of these aggressive clans, Uesugi becomes more like playing as the other clans. Until that point it's basically all war all the time.

[BastardSword]

Ok maybe DON'T make turn 1 alliances as Uesugi. It's worked out for me in the past, but I just started a new campaign and tried it and it did not go well, after a while I was at war with 6 clans at once because my allies kept getting invaded one after the other. Ikko Ikki attacked me at Echigo with a big army and I fought them off but lost a lot of men, and then a couple turns later Takeda and Hojo attacked me together with a full stack each and I gave up on that campaign.

Restarted and now I've focused on getting Heaven and Earth ASAP for the replenishment bonus and an armory, and I didn't make any alliances other than Takeda. As usual they cancelled the alliance for no apparent reason a few turns later. Everyone left me alone for a long time but Satomi attacked me with a big army which I easily defeated, then made peace with them. Sakai attacked me next so I sent Uesugi Kenshin west to take their land and then vassalized them. Arranged marriages with Date and Takeda to keep them happy with me. Several turns later and I'm only making 900 a turn which isn't enough, Satomi redeclared war so I had to move Kenshin east again and sent my second mini-army west to Kaga to start hiring new guys. Satomi took Echigo but I took it back the next turn by sieging them, now Date declared war on me. Now I'm still pretty poor, Kenshin is strong but rather stuck in Echigo and my second army is rather weak in Kaga. Need to make more money so I can build up that second army. Hattori is my neighbor to the west and is probably licking his lips.

[BastardSword]

This is shaping up to be one of THOSE campaigns, where nobody leaves you alone no matter what. Mori and Shimazu have declared war on me for no reason even though they're on the other side of the map. I'm still poor as hell, only making 300 a turn now. What's annoying is that Satomi and Date are both at war with me and border me respectively to my south and east, so I can't focus on either of them, and just have to sit around in Echigo hoping they throw themselves at me. Wish I could make peace with one then go end the other.

[BastardSword]

Yeesh, what a game. Spent all day trying to take back control of the campaign, and it was pretty rough. I finally managed to take over the eastern 1/3rd of Japan. Satomi and Takeda declared war on me and made peace with me about 500 times each, but I finally weakened Satomi so much that they aren't bothering me anymore, and Takeda got taken out by other clans. Mori, Shimazu and Takaoka declared war on me a long time ago and kept dumping armies at Echigo which I would then destroy. This kind of situation is really annoying because these clans are way far away from me and refuse to make peace with me because they don't see me as a nearby threat, even when I destroy all their armies over and over again. And then despite me weakening them so much, the other AI clans just leave them alone.

Anyway now I'm making 14,000 a turn, I finally made peace with everyone, and I just need to fill up my armies with quality units before RD.