Ikko Ikki vs Uesugi

[Noxious]

Which do people prefer and how do their units differ?

[Telvido_cat]

Uesugi are the most bland copy/paste clan don't think they get any unique units. Ikko have 5 I think, more than anyone else, and their roster is about as unique as it gets for S2.

[bkkm12]

I will choose Uesugi, even if i get ikko ikki pack. The reasons are ikko ikki is more like Otomo style but without the Nanban trade-ship and bonus. If you got the ikko ikki pack with other dlc, you can unlock Uesugi monk hero, and Uesugi mathalon monks which is quite useful.

[Eddie G]

The Uesugi already had superior warrior monks, before the Ikko Ikki download content, they also had warrior monk heroes.

[easytarget]

The Ikko Ikki are some good fun because they've got unique game mechanics no other clan has. The first time I revolted a province and got handed an army amused me no end.

So much so that I went all over the map doing it.

It's also fun being hated, there's no diplomacy just war.

[BastardSword]

Only reason to play either is to challenge yourself. Uesugi have a very hard start because everyone around them declares war on them early on. Once you fight them off and take over the Northern end of Japan it is pretty smooth sailing though.

Ikko Ikki are even harder because everyone hates them. They don't have metsukes so that is like 5,000 to 10,000 koku a turn in income that you can't get. Their basic units are ok but don't really shine unless you have high-level generals. Their ronin units are pretty bad though. Usually I'm struggling so much for income that I never get around to hiring their monk units. Oh and expect the population to hate you from start to finish because of religious differences. Maxing out the entire chi tech tree is pretty much a must with them, so you can boost public order, religious conversion, and your economy to max.

If you are comparing the two clans for their units because you think they're similar, they aren't really similar other than some monk units. They both get slightly better naginata monks and bow monks than other clans. They also both get marathon monks which are pretty worthless because they have almost the same stats but a smaller unit size than the naginata monks. The marathon monks are supposed to be good at running, but they have the same charge bonus as naginata monks. Also stamina apparently doesn't affect melee units anyway so their "endless stamina" is pretty garbage.

Ikko Ikki get some other pretty decent units though. Their loan sword ashigaru are a good cheap replacement for katana samurai, and have very low upkeep so they are good for long-term garrisons. Their yari ashigaru and bow ashigaru have lower stats than those of other clans, but higher morale. Again if you have a level 4/5/6 general these ashigaru units will slaughter everything, but you might find it tricky with low level generals. Ronin as I said are pretty bad, their small unit size makes them less effective than other clans' samurai. The Ikko Ikki matchlock monks are absolute garbage, they die really quickly because of their paper-thin armor. I was expecting big things from them but found them pretty useless. Can't say I've ever hired the monk cavalry.

[Eat3n]

Originally posted by Telvido_cat:

Uesugi are the most bland copy/paste clan don't think they get any unique units. Ikko have 5 I think, more than anyone else, and their roster is about as unique as it gets for S2.

Their special unit is warrior monks if I remember but it’s a waste of time trying to get them because you start in a garbage area, get attacked easily, and struggle to make money. Why waste money, time, and food on another building slot for some “eh” units?

[Telvido_cat]

Originally posted by Jesus:

Originally posted by Telvido_cat:

Uesugi are the most bland copy/paste clan don't think they get any unique units. Ikko have 5 I think, more than anyone else, and their roster is about as unique as it gets for S2.

Their special unit is warrior monks if I remember but it’s a waste of time trying to get them because you start in a garbage area, get attacked easily, and struggle to make money. Why waste money, time, and food on another building slot for some “eh” units?

Marathon monk, ikko have them too. Uesugi have the hardest start some like a challenge. Uesugi Kenshin is a dope daimyo tho.

[bkkm12]

Originally posted by Telvido_cat:

Originally posted by Jesus:

Their special unit is warrior monks if I remember but it’s a waste of time trying to get them because you start in a garbage area, get attacked easily, and struggle to make money. Why waste money, time, and food on another building slot for some “eh” units?

Marathon monk, ikko have them too. Uesugi have the hardest start some like a challenge. Uesugi Kenshin is a dope daimyo tho.

From real history to this game, he never a dope daimyo.
In term of the character in the game, both are very tough at start, because Uesugi have Takeda as Ikko have oda and hattori. Uesugi have allies (Yamanouchi- very good one, and ashina). I have him side by side, and then got killed by Takeda. I restore them as Vassel. Until 115 round he finally declare war on me, but most ppl should finished the game by that time.

[Telvido_cat]

Originally posted by bkkm12:

Originally posted by Telvido_cat:

Marathon monk, ikko have them too. Uesugi have the hardest start some like a challenge. Uesugi Kenshin is a dope daimyo tho.

From real history to this game, he never a dope daimyo.
In term of the character in the game, both are very tough at start, because Uesugi have Takeda as Ikko have oda and hattori. Uesugi have allies (Yamanouchi- very good one, and ashina). I have him side by side, and then got killed by Takeda. I restore them as Vassel. Until 115 round he finally declare war on me, but most ppl should finished the game by that time.

Kenshin is dopetastic! 4 honour, likes a drink, younger than the rest what's not to love?

[Red Bat]

Ikko Ikki have probably the hardest campaign even if their start is slightly easier than Otomo on higher difficulties. Most of their unique mechanics work against them. However like Otomo they can abuse rebellions to make up for their weaknesses, and Warrior Monks are a good unit to focus on as they don't require any military research, letting you focus on your economy. Still prefer Otomo. You still have a hard campaign, but at least you feel like you've earned something when you are rolling out some of the best ships, cannons, Tercios, possibly Matchlock Samurai, and you are abusing rebellions like mad. Especially since most clans aren't realistically ever even going to make matchlock units without seriously hampering their ability to win. Ikko Ikki doesn't feel like it gives you as much once you push through the slog.

Uesugi just strikes me as easier Ikko Ikki without the massively abusable rebellions. Their start position is kind of hard, but otherwise not too difficult of a playthrough.

[Ryan]

Ikko Ikki are more fun to play. All you gotta do is get some Vassals. Beefs up your defense without you getting all the expansion debuffs that make everyone declare war on you even faster. Then you use monks to start making enemy provinces rebel, this will leave you with a free army and a happy province to boot. Rinse and repeat. Spread the faith not your borders!!

[BastardSword]

Ikko Ikki monk rebellions are fun the first couple times when you want to steal some land, but they pretty quickly bite you in the ass. It's easier to cause a rebellion when a province is closer to 100% not your religion, so when you do instantly take those provinces, you suddenly have a very expensive spawn army there, and a province that hates you because it's 100% not your religion, and in the early game it will take you a long time to convert everyone and it will tie up your monks and force you to build otherwise useless temples.

And each province you take gets you closer to triggering Realm Divide, meaning that you pretty quickly have to stop causing rebellions or you'll trigger RD way before you're ready. You also need to be careful about putting temples in your border provinces because it will convert neighboring provinces and eventually it will cause a rebellion and you automatically take that province.

Again it's fine to do this in the early game when you just want a safe province without having to build an army to take it, but I prefer the non-Ikko rebellions because it makes a rebel province that I can take on my own time or just ignore it and let it weaken my neighbors and/or create a buffer zone, considering how lazy the AI can be about taking rebel provinces. If you want to talk about breaking the game with rebellions, Christian missionaries do that.

[Tyll Uhlenspiegel]

Originally posted by BastardSword:

Also stamina apparently doesn't affect melee units anyway so their "endless stamina" is pretty garbage.

Stamina affects morale and melee attack which is pretty huge.

[BlackKatana]

I understand why people think Otomo's start is hard but if you know how to use matchlock units in the siege as well, you can capture a province in your first turn and 2 more in your second. And if you don't ignore your navy ouchi can't attack you and it doesn't matter if Ito or Shimazu attack you because you have matchlocks

[markeason]

Originally posted by Tyll Uhlenspiegel:

Originally posted by BastardSword:

Also stamina apparently doesn't affect melee units anyway so their "endless stamina" is pretty garbage.

Stamina affects morale and melee attack which is pretty huge.

Stamina affects unit fatigue.

Unit fatigue affects only morale for infantry units.

Fatigue affects other stats for mounted units (melee / running speed / charge bonus / missile accuracy). But it only affects morale for infantry units - a coding error I am sure.