About vassals....

[kasixLv]

I know this has been disscussed in theese forums, but I still have no idea if having a vassal or multiple vassals are good for you in any way. They just give you small amount of units and rarely help in warfare. After some time, some of them even dare to attack you. So, what is the correct way to use them ?

[easytarget]

I use them post realm divide. That way they don't suffer a diplomacy penalty and tend to stay on side for the duration.

Reasons I use them:

1. Since this is mid-campaign given we're talking post realm divide, I'm usually at this point in fairly firm control and my goal is to press the attack in a blitzkrieg to capture the province count in the victory condition (40 for long campaign). As such I don't want the cost and upkeep, which when I take vassals I don't have to shoulder.
2. Besides no costs for me, there's also no requirement I worry about religion or happiness, again, that's the problem of the vassal to sort.
3. Automatic trade partner, you need only request of them and it's granted. Post realm divide trade partners are hard to come by so this should not be underestimated.
4. Defense - there is none. My entire stack (plus a bonus one unit given for creating the vassal) is free to move on to conquer yet another province leaving none behind to waste on defense.
5. Depending on who they border on, they will and do attack other clans and take their provinces, it all just depends on the geography of where they are located when you take them. And those provinces they take do count towards total province count for the victory condition.

Conclusion: mid-campaign there are so many very strong reasons for making vassals not doing so will just slow down your victory. It's not to say you can't win w/o them, of course you can. But with 3-4 stacks I can take 3-4 provinces per turn. Stop and think about how long it takes to win given that province capture rate.

[kasixLv]

Originally posted by easytarget:

I use them post realm divide. That way they don't suffer a diplomacy penalty and tend to stay on side for the duration.

Reasons I use them:

1. Since this is mid-campaign given we're talking post realm divide, I'm usually at this point in fairly firm control and my goal is to press the attack in a blitzkrieg to capture the province count in the victory condition (40 for long campaign). As such I don't want the cost and upkeep, which when I take vassals I don't have to shoulder.
2. Besides no costs for me, there's also no requirement I worry about religion or happiness, again, that's the problem of the vassal to sort.
3. Automatic trade partner, you need only request of them and it's granted. Post realm divide trade partners are hard to come by so this should not be underestimated.
4. Defense - there is none. My entire stack (plus a bonus one unit given for creating the vassal) is free to move on to conquer yet another province leaving no behind to waste on defense.
5. Depending on who they border on, they will and do attack other clans and take their provinces, it all just depends on the geography of where they are located when you take them.

Conclusion: mid-campaign there are so many very strong reasons for making vassals not doing so will just slow down your victory. It's not to say you can't win w/o them, of course you can. But with 3-4 stacks I can take 3-4 provinces per turn. Stop and think about how long it takes to win given that province capture rate.

Really useful reply, thanks!

[easytarget]

My pleasure, enjoy the campaign and the strategic use of vassals. ;)

[aholavalava]

Take not that not all clans are suited to be vassals.

* Clans which have an ambitious temperament will most likely turn on you as soon as they get a full stack of units.

* Try not to keep the borders with your vassal empty to minimize tempting your vassals to attack you.

* If you plan to take make a vassal,, keep their borders away from any other clan or you might find yourself in an unwanted/undesired/unplanned war. Nearby clans will most probably attempt to wage war against your vassal if their borders are connected. Declining to help your ally cancels the vassalage and you take a hit to your honor.

* You receive half of the income of your vassal so that's a big plus aside from acquiring a stable trade partner.

* Open your borders to your vassal if you want them to help you in war but keep in mind that if the enemy is too far, they most likely won't help. Take note as well that this could potentially be dangerous since your vassal could be tempted to attack your unprotected provinces if given the chance.

[Drewsko]

poor counties make good vassals. Since you can only control so much of Japan before Japan fights back you should give the away as much poor land as you can or avoid them all toghether. Once you some how save up enough money to create a grand armee to blitzkrieg the rest it should be easy then.

[kasixLv]

Thanks for the replies! I will try out those new stategies with vassals.

[Brotherscompany]

I have around 1000h on this game and I got quite a good picture of it and this is my opnion. Note that I love the ideia to have vassals fighting next to you so I did this a lot of times.

- They are useless before Realm Devide. They will turn on you when it hits and it would just had been a waste of time

- If you need honor, you can create vassals to regain but its going to be tricky because the AI loves to declare war on vassals and they will drag you, other wise you will loose that honor point ( notice that you only get 3 points max of honor by creating them )

- Be carefull if you are using them as a safe zone because you will need to defend them probably from the clans you were avoiding

- Never but ever expect to them to do well military on the campaign. They are the worst AI ever at attacking, they refuse to attack provinces that are empty while you have your stack next to them and will rather most times attack them and then just retreat to their home town leaving the new province undefended.

- They refuse to attack provinces and you should not expect them as I said to conquer provinces.

- You always need to have an army helping them by the amount of sh@t they will get on to and do.

- You need to give them money to see if they can do something good because although they have cheats money, they have to give you a amount and with only one province it wont leave them much income, plus it will improve your relation

- Dont exepect any kind of help what so ever on the even if they are powerfull enough, you will actually need to defend them to prevent them losing provinces

- When they are trying to take a city always help them, they will get massacrated.~

- Post Realm Devide they can give you a bit of money and do some ships to fight


AND MOST IMPORTANT.

- Unfortunely they dont work at all and its a HUGE WASTE OF TIME.


I have tried a lot of times doing this and even the larger vassals fail completly. I got a mod to reduce the Realm Devide efect to keep my vassals with me and Im like, mind blowed by this one actually working.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=586756632
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=586756553

I had 2 stacks always helping them, giving them 3k per turn, defending their provinces, sabotaging enemy armys to help them and this is just the best I got so far. How much time to them to get like this you ask. 60 TURNS OF BABYSTING.


Now I must apolligise for this super long post but this is with no doubt my prefered topic in the game to discuss and I have a lot to say =)

[easytarget]

"Unfortunely they dont work at all and its a HUGE WASTE OF TIME."

If this is the conclusion this wall of text ramble of yours lands on, you need to play another 1000 hours or so till you figure this out.

[Brotherscompany]

Did you get that my final conclusion is that?

[Thaiden]

Vassals are good in select instances. Managing provinces will always produce the largest amount of gold over time but requires the greatest investment of time & management.

I prefer to use vassals when it is necessary (i.e. moving armies quicker, blockade against an enemy, etc.) and sometimes when the province is not worth much anyway; but do not forget as stated above, location is very important.

GL HF

[easytarget]

Originally posted by Brotherscompany:

Did you get that my final conclusion is that?

Yes, but then your post was a bit all over the place so if that wasn't the conclusion, sorry. Just seemed like the all caps part saying "HUGE WASTE OF TIME" meant you didn't think they were useful.

No matter, my point regardless is they are useful under certain circumtances, one of them in particular being post realm divide, for all the reasons I listed earlier.

[Brotherscompany]

Yhea on RD they are able to be a bit usefull

[Red Bat]

They are a heck of a lot more useful in this game than in Medieval 2 or really most other TW games.

But honestly it's very rare that it's a good idea to have a vassal clan... It's just "very rare" is a heck of a lot more common than the "never" of other games. Realm Divide is where their value goes up.

[Mile pro Libertate]

I've found vassals very useful, depending on who they are and where they are, relative to the factions you are enemies with.

I've beaten the game on Legendary, "long victory" conditions, and have managed to keep vassals from pre-RD all the way to the very end. The longest was with Date, where I made Mogami a vassal in 1548-49 and they stayed loyal through the end of the game in the 1580s.

Most people will say pre-RD vassals are useless, but whether a vassal will betray quickly or not is to a large extent dependent on the conditions under which you vassal them.

There are several key things to keep in mind:

1) The temperment of the clan. Clans rated as "ambitious" or "aggressive" will be more likely to backstab you than clans that are "peaceful" or "defensive."

2) If you make a bunch of grievances with the clan, like looting their towns or betraying alliances, then when you defeat them, they are not going to like you very much. On the other hand, if you liberate clans that have been conquered by others, they will be more loyal.

3) Clans that are situated next to clans that they do not have good relations with will be more likely to attack those clans instead of you, and will be more willing to send troops if you engage in war with that neighbor. If clan X is your vassla, and they start at war, or don't like clan Y, then they will want to attack Y, and relations with you will go up if you enter into war with Y as well. But if X and Y were on good terms, then X isn't going to help you fight Y by sending troops: they will probably just stay in their own territory. If X and Y both don't like you when you vassal X, then you are asking for a betrayal. Keep in mind that X can drag you into a war with Y as well, and that is bound to happen if they don't like each other.

4) Clans will betray more readily if they are not getting anything from the vassalage. This is just common sense, really. Would you stay someone's vassal if all you every did was send tribute and got nothing out of it? Make sure to send money periodically to your vassals, make marriages, etc.

5) On the same note, you have to support your vassals from time to time to keep their support up. If they are getting invaded, and you send troops to help them, even if it is only a few, you will get 'battle support' and other modifiers that positively impact your diplomacy with them. Conversely, if you just totally ignore them and leave them to fend for themselves, they are more likely to have negative relationship with you.

[Don Gabhana]

I just use them as a meat shield between me and the other big clan.