Inconsistent vassal system?

[ubermensch]

Playing the game for awhile and honestly I don't really get the point of Vassaling clans unless you already start off with one. It seems the system is very wonky and securing their loyalty enough to make them stay when rough times come by is kinda pointless. As it just seems more like an inevitability that they just break and war with you then anything else. Anyone else get this impression?

[Red Spot]

Vassals have always been a bit of a 'leap of good faith' in TW games. With the realm divide part of Shogun 2 they have become less of a leap of faith and more a no-no since you can pretty much expect them to betray you at some point.
They can work, but I personally do not bother with that system.

[bkkm12]

yup,check out my other msg on the vassals topic previously ppl talk about. But that is a realistic view as no ppl can be trust as always allied.
I also found a way to tackle this problem, if it is short campaign, then you have taken 3/4 or a bit more, then use it. It will shorten ur time to beat the game.

[Telvido_cat]

I think clan personality might be a factor. I've had all sorts of vasssals main problem is they tend to drag me into wars. They're good for the honour buff.

[ubermensch]

Originally posted by bkkm12:

yup,check out my other msg on the vassals topic previously ppl talk about. But that is a realistic view as no ppl can be trust as always allied.
I also found a way to tackle this problem, if it is short campaign, then you have taken 3/4 or a bit more, then use it. It will shorten ur time to beat the game.

Idk about realistic I think the game can at least set a reasonable parameter on who stays loyal vs. who decides to stab you in the back simply cause realm divide happens. If its like a vassal that I've had for 5-10 turns. Sure. However if its like a long standing vassal that I've had for 20 turns or more. like common. Ontop of that I even bring some of these vassals into the family through marriage or hostages and it still doesn't really do anything. Overall its head scratching and pretty obnoxious. You might as well just slaughter their clan out of existence and say its all X or Y clan now.

[rory.b.p]

Originally posted by ubermensch:

Originally posted by bkkm12:

yup,check out my other msg on the vassals topic previously ppl talk about. But that is a realistic view as no ppl can be trust as always allied.
I also found a way to tackle this problem, if it is short campaign, then you have taken 3/4 or a bit more, then use it. It will shorten ur time to beat the game.

Idk about realistic I think the game can at least set a reasonable parameter on who stays loyal vs. who decides to stab you in the back simply cause realm divide happens. If its like a vassal that I've had for 5-10 turns. Sure. However if its like a long standing vassal that I've had for 20 turns or more. like common. Ontop of that I even bring some of these vassals into the family through marriage or hostages and it still doesn't really do anything. Overall its head scratching and pretty obnoxious. You might as well just slaughter their clan out of existence and say its all X or Y clan now.

Vassals will stab you in the back eventually regardless of realm divide unless you leave millitary stationed near them.
Allies are easier to keep via marriage & cash post RD.
Vassals main use are as a buffer post RD if needed because the RD penalty doesn't count if the vassals is made post RD.
Even then playing as anyone but the Ikko ikki creating rebel states as a buffer are more effective than vassal buffers.

[Mile pro Libertate]

As Rorybp said, if you form the vassal after RD sets in, they do not suffer the RD malus towards you, which makes them very viable during RD. They can be useful before RD as well, but that requires very good mastery of the game mechanics, so for most newbies vassals will be a post-RD option.

During RD, they can help your clan in three, big ways:

A) They can provide trade income when the other clans, including neutrals, break trade agreements owing to RD.

B) They can furnish stacks of their own troops to help you fight enemies, which is very useful during the stack spam of RD.

C) Related to (B), any provinces that vassals conquer count towards your victory objectives, so you will tend to satisfy province count more quickly. Vassals can deal with invasions of your home areas, allowing you to concentrate on Kyoto.

It also should be mentioned that vassals have different utility in the expansions. In FotS, if you're going for Shogunate or Imperial, they can make late game much easier, because of the coalition mechanic. In RotS, they can be very useful early to mid game because you'll want to build your power with junsutsushi, and can't necessarily paint the map with your own stacks.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Red Spot:

Vassals have always been a bit of a 'leap of good faith' in TW games. With the realm divide part of Shogun 2 they have become less of a leap of faith and more a no-no since you can pretty much expect them to betray you at some point.
They can work, but I personally do not bother with that system.

Yes, they have generally been pretty useless throughout the TW series.

They seem to be the most manageable, least risky and useful in Thrones of Britannia, because of the newer breakdown of diplomacy modifiers, faction mechanics, war targeting, and victory objectives (eg. going for a Fame Victory).

In Attila they are less risky than Shogun 2, and more predictable, plus there is war targeting; but they also tend to do weird stuff like raze regions for no reason, and drag you into wars. They seem a little more worthy in AoC because of the way that the campaign is structured. In Thrones vassals are much less likely to get you into binds diplomatically because of the way war declarations work.

One of the biggest problems with vassals in Shogun 2 is that if they start a war with your ally, you lose major honor regardless of whose defence you come to, and regardless of who broke the arrangement.

Imo vassals are the most useful and practical, from best to worst, in:

1) Thrones of Britannia
2) Age of Charlemagne
3) Attila GC
4) Fall of the Samurai
5) Shogun 2 GC

They are pretty irrelevant in Rome 2, and the older TW games.

[BastardSword]

Vassals are pretty pointless in Shogun 2. Their positives are more than balanced out by their negatives.

Before Realm Divide, one of two things happens when I make a vassal:

- the new vassal loves me but starts taking over land. Pretty soon they take over so many provinces that they trigger realm divide because their provinces are counted as mine. Then they'll declare war on me as well because realm divide.

- the new vassal still hates me and attacks me after a few turns.

After Realm Divide the diplomacy penalty is reduced if you make a vassal AFTER you officially become Shogun, but it's still there. The vassal will probably eventually declare war on you. After Realm Divide you'll be making so much money that you won't need any trade.

The only reason I ever make vassals is if I'm at war with multiple clans, and I reduce one clan to one province and destroy all their armies. I will then make them a vassal so I can move my army to defend myself from the other clan/s I'm at war with. That way I don't have to park my army in their town and wait several turns for happiness to rebound.

Now, in Fall of the Samurai, vassals are actually very viable because you can actually bring a coalition into Realm Divide, so any vassals on your side will stay on your side forever. Before Realm Divide if you make a clan your vassal, they will always flip to your faction if they weren't on it before. Very useful to bring more clans onto your faction. However after Realm Divide, if you take over a town and you get the "create vassal" option, if that province was originally held by a clan from the opposing faction, they'll still be on that faction when they get recreated as your vassal, and they'll declare war on you the next turn. To be safe just don't make vassals after Realm Divide.

[eyecarrot19]

Originally posted by ubermensch:

Playing the game for awhile and honestly I don't really get the point of Vassaling clans unless you already start off with one. It seems the system is very wonky and securing their loyalty enough to make them stay when rough times come by is kinda pointless. As it just seems more like an inevitability that they just break and war with you then anything else. Anyone else get this impression?

imo, vassals are useful, but yeah, if RD or republic was picked, you should be ready to treat them with military force, otherwise in Shogun 2, you can always aid them with money.
From vassals you get:
1. Honour - means you can maximize it and get +1 to population happiness or leave it for future sacking the towns to get huge cash bonuses
2. Trade - vassal will be close to you and it will be easy to deal with piracy or port blockade to countine getting money from agreement. Also, after RD in Shogun 2 vassals or any military alliances aided with money, would be the only available trade partners.
3. Military help - AI programmed with that way, that they will advance from their home province, only if they feel military advantage over neighbors enemy's provinces. If they don't feel it, you can make it by destroying enemy forces there or siege the castle, so allied troops would rally on you. AI in that way doesn't really care if castle would be yours in that case, they just want an advantage and victory, that works the same with other military alliances.
4. Administration cost - with every provinces controlled by you, administration costs percentage rises, so you can avoid that by giving the useless provinces (usually with bad soil, no resources, no wealth and no, at least mid-tier, buildings) to the vassals. You will still get 50% of their income (not sure if 50% is true)

Just by paying attention and considering some rules, towards the creating vassals, you anyway will get right bonuses from them

[Cartoon Cat]

I tried the Tokugawa Clan a few weeks back where you start off as a vassal state. If i recall correctly the AI vassals plays by different rules than the ones imposed on you in that you can't start a war with another clan without declaring war on your oppressor. You can't refuse to join your oppressor's wars. The AI vassals doesn't seem to be bound by these impositions when you're their oppressor.

In any case my own use of vassals is the classic roman buffer states tactic to put something between me and another enemy clan when I'm fighting too many clans in all directions. They eventually fall but it can be enough to buy that one extra turn to get your own armies in position.

[eyecarrot19]

Originally posted by Cartoon Cat:

I tried the Tokugawa Clan a few weeks back where you start off as a vassal state. If i recall correctly the AI vassals plays by different rules than the ones imposed on you in that you can't start a war with another clan without declaring war on your oppressor. You can't refuse to join your oppressor's wars. The AI vassals doesn't seem to be bound by these impositions when you're their oppressor.

In any case my own use of vassals is the classic roman buffer states tactic to put something between me and another enemy clan when I'm fighting too many clans in all directions. They eventually fall but it can be enough to buy that one extra turn to get your own armies in position.

I don't think that creating buffer zones are any good, not sure but AI seems to be ignoring the fact, that clan might be someone else vassal or be in alliance, so it will actually can work as magnet if true

[Vnark]

Originally posted by F31.58:

Originally posted by Cartoon Cat:

I tried the Tokugawa Clan a few weeks back where you start off as a vassal state. If i recall correctly the AI vassals plays by different rules than the ones imposed on you in that you can't start a war with another clan without declaring war on your oppressor. You can't refuse to join your oppressor's wars. The AI vassals doesn't seem to be bound by these impositions when you're their oppressor.

In any case my own use of vassals is the classic roman buffer states tactic to put something between me and another enemy clan when I'm fighting too many clans in all directions. They eventually fall but it can be enough to buy that one extra turn to get your own armies in position.

I don't think that creating buffer zones are any good, not sure but AI seems to be ignoring the fact, that clan might be someone else vassal or be in alliance, so it will actually can work as magnet if true

I second the use as buffers, specially in legendary.
Also something silly is that if you're lucky, the vassal might be able to amass a big enough army to be a strong spearpoint for you. Saves a lot of your units.
In case they betray you, you keep some forces behind to backdoor their provinces, making them have to fight on two fronts.
Another good use is some rich province that is highly isolated and surrounded by your enemies (like fukushima). If you don't have resources to hold it on your own you can make a vassal there having an easier time to hold it.

[ubermensch]

Personally I think Vassaling should be offered as a viable alternative of empire managing and building. It might prove more head aches but it truly is a entertaining dynamic to have and can offer benefits you, yourself can't produce in the immediate sense. In Shogun 2 besides for a means to an end aspect Vassals just seem to be a more or less pointless endeavor. Which makes me a bit sad. Although I guess in this era of back stabbings and so on it fits. Still wish you can be a bit more imposing to force a vassal not to get any ideas. So when realm divide hits your immediate helper is now your most dire immediate threat cause well you think you did enough to keep them loyal.

[Red Spot]

^That might actually be a nice sort of gameplay. Keeping a small empire and directing vassals to do your fighting with your support and guidance. Risky to see vassals grow bigger than yourself, but that just adds to the suspense.

[CSKA'Nikolai]

The only good thing about having a vassal is that you use them as a buffer zone next to a potential or an already existing enemy with an army you do not want to fight.

The only problem with vassals is the whole realm divide, even if you give them a certain amount of money per turn, they will still turn against you at one stage.