Are guns worth using in shogun 2? (New player)

[Beerbaronkw]

Every battle I've tried to use them in I end up losing. Everyone else in my army does great but the musket men do virtually nothing and drag the army down with them. Is there a good reason to use them? Bows have a longer range, are easier to get, can use flaming arrows, can fire in an arc, and seem to fire faster.

I'm new to the game so maybe my usage of them is just wrong. Usually I bring 6 in a whole stack, with spear units, samurai and bowmen. When in combat I pick them together in a line to get a wall of lead firing at the enemy. I use the other units to support the musket fire.

Edit - my campaign feels like it's in a hopeless situation, should I retry? I'm playing as the island clan that specializes in bows and have managed to reach the realm Divide. Before writing this I had good control over eastern Japan. Held a bunch of land, had Mori as a vassal, controlled the coast up to Kyoto, had some land on the northern coast, and had taken complete control of the starting island.

As I'm writing this I have lost 1 settlement near Kyoto and I'm about to lose a second one to 2 massive Hattori armies, in the process losing both of armies I had there. I've lost most of the northern coast to rebellions, betrayals and war due to the realm divide. Ive lost control over a quarter of the southern coast to the Mori clan(after betrayal).I have a weak army on the northern coast with a stronger army on the island control by Shoni. The only thing I've managed to keep is my dominance over the sea but that is facing serious threat.

[BastardSword]

In general I would say that guns are not worth it. They are really bad in an open field battle mainly because their shorter range means you need to move them really close to the enemy, which exposes them to enemy bows and melee attacks. They fire very slowly and will do very low casualties before they inevitably get wiped out. Best way to use them in an open field battle is as a flanking unit, like once the enemy is busy in a massive melee mosh pit with your melee units, wheel some matchlocks around to the side and fire into the sides and backs of the enemy. But this is just begging for enemy cavalry or a couple melee units to bum rush them.

Another thing you can try is to have them on a forested hill, they will have added protection and can wait for the enemy to approach them before firing from stealth, but this depends on the battle map having forested hills that are easy to get onto.

Matchlocks are great in siege defense battles and will kill a lot of enemies, enemy bows will stay just out of their range but at least the matchlocks will have the castle walls to protect them. You can bait the bows by pulling your matchlocks off the walls until the enemy bows walk forward and get into range, then put the matchlocks back on the walls and let them rip the bows to shreds. However by the time you can hire several matchlocks, you'll probably be in the mid game, when you aren't really defending any castles any more. In the late game you'll be focused almost solely on taking new land and pretty definitely won't be defending any castles.

In any case bows can defend a castle well enough, but are so much more effective in open field battles that they are by far the better unit. Get the bow expertise tech and some bow accuracy upgrades and even bow ashigaru will serve you well. Best thing to do with bows

If you do decide to spend the zillion turns to unlock the gunpowder mastery tech, just build an arsenal and get fire rockets. They are by far the best missile unit in the game, and are basically like walking cruise missile launchers. The AI has no idea what to do against them and will just stand still on the battlefield while you blow them up from the other side of the map.

[BastardSword]

As for the second part of your post about suffering through realm divide, you really want to have public order sorted out BEFORE realm divide. You're going to be taking over a lot of new provinces which won't like you for several turns. You want repression and happiness (which are literally the same thing) to be high, and you don't want religious differences to simmer. You really don't want all your rearguard provinces constantly rebelling when you are at war with every clan on the map.

I always try to get Sword Hunt for its global +2 repression before realm divide, it takes a long time to unlock but really makes a difference. I will often get Sumo Tournament during realm divide, it gives +1 happiness, it also takes a long time to unlock but again is nice to have.

Keep an eye on religious stuff, if your provinces have a population that is mostly an opposing religion, make sure you convert it ASAP before realm divide, and stop any sources of conversion. Like if you are buddhist and take a province that has a nanban trade port, destroy it and build a buddhist temple and let the population turn back to buddhism.

In general Sake Dens give a good +2 happiness in a province which can be useful, they are quick to build and you can upgrade it to +3 happiness. Buddhist temples give +1 happiness and convert your population to buddhism. If you have lots of food then often upgrading a castle can be a good way to get extra repression in provinces that are being difficult. Keep in mind that the home provinces of the major clans always have really high unrest for the first few turns you hold them, so building sake dens and upgrading a castle can be useful there.

If I'm Ikko Ikki or Christian then I get the Neo-Confucianism tech for +1 happiness and faster conversion rate. If I'm Buddhist then I don't bother because the vast majority of provinces I'm taking are already 100% buddhist.

Also if you are playing a short campaign because you thought it would be easier, keep in mind that short campaign is basically challenge mode because it forces you to rush into realm divide and win the game much earlier than a long or domination campaign. Long or domination allows you to take a lot more provinces and spend a lot longer building up your economy and unlocking techs.

[Xaphnir]

While guns are only of limited use in field battles and offensive sieges, there's a decent chance you're using them poorly, too.

They're great if you're defending a hill and place them behind your front line at a higher elevation (or you can place them in front of your front line to fire at the closing enemy, then charge your front line while moving your matchlocks back).

You also need to stretch out their line to maximize their firepower. Unless you use the fire by rank ability, only the first line will fire. And fire by rank makes them fire slower. I

And they're also incredibly deadly against cavalry. If you have a matchlock unit sitting behind your front line and the enemy general charges into melee there (something the AI likes to do), that matchlock unit can shred his bodyguard and quite possibly kill him in a volley or two.

If you use them properly (and the map is conducive to their use), they can be deadly. They will outdamage bows if they can shoot at targets. The challenge is getting them into a position where they're both safe from enemy melee units and can fire.

They're also a lot more useful if you play the Otomo clan. They get the ability to recruit matchlock ashigaru right from the start, with the imported variant from the nanban trade port they start with. And once that's upgraded to a nanban quarter, you can recruit terços, which have better armor, great accuracy and reloading skill, and are capable in melee. And terços only require the Attack by Fire tech, a much lower technology investment than other clans need for matchlock units.

As for your campaign, the general strategy in a Shogun 2 campaign is to conquer right up to just before the realm divide, then consolidate and spend time building up before triggering it. There's more capacity to play "tall" in Shogun 2 than in other Total War games, meaning you can actually build up the wealth of your provinces quite a bit. Think of a Shogun 2 campaign in 3 phases: first, your goal is to eliminate threats and establish yourself in a strong position, and conquer up to just before triggering the realm divide. You may also want to stop and consolidate at certain points in this phase before conquering more, for example after securing control of Kyushu as Shimazu or Otomo. In the second phase, you're building up your provinces and researching the techs you want before the realm divide. The third phase is the realm divide, which continues until the end of the campaign.

[Beerbaronkw]

I'm probably not going to try ro use guns anymore, it's not worth the time and money to recruit them when archers can do ranged combat better on average.

Hopefully I can turn around the damage done by the Shoni and the Hattori and succeed.

[Xaphnir]

Originally posted by Beerbaronkw:

I'm probably not going to try ro use guns anymore, it's not worth the time and money to recruit them when archers can do ranged combat better on average.

Hopefully I can turn around the damage done by the Shoni and the Hattori and succeed.

Since you already have access to them, they'd be worth putting in castles that you think are going to come under attack. They absolutely will pull their weight and then some in defensive sieges.

[Uncle Khai]

not worth even late game! stack bow ashigaru, that unit best for the rest of game

[BastardSword]

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

And they're also incredibly deadly against cavalry. If you have a matchlock unit sitting behind your front line and the enemy general charges into melee there (something the AI likes to do), that matchlock unit can shred his bodyguard and quite possibly kill him in a volley or two.

I don't really like doing that sort of thing because it usually means firing into your own units and risking a rout. For some reason your bows seem to never kill or harm your own troops, but matchlocks cause a pretty stiff "under fire" morale penalty to units.

Bows are really good at killing enemy generals. Usually the AI general will stay far back behind its lines out of the range of your bows, but once the battle is about halfway done, the general will move forward and start moving around behind its melee troops, trying to give them morale bonuses. If you select all your bows and have them fire at the general, you'll have a really good chance of killing him. I've won a lot of battles that seemed hopeless because I killed a high level enemy general this way and caused a mass rout in the AI army, right when my troops were starting to think about routing.

[Xaphnir]

Originally posted by BastardSword:

Bows are really good at killing enemy generals. Usually the AI general will stay far back behind its lines out of the range of your bows, but once the battle is about halfway done, the general will move forward and start moving around behind its melee troops, trying to give them morale bonuses. If you select all your bows and have them fire at the general, you'll have a really good chance of killing him. I've won a lot of battles that seemed hopeless because I killed a high level enemy general this way and caused a mass rout in the AI army, right when my troops were starting to think about routing.

What bow unit is this, and how many? I've had battles where I have multiple bow units firing at the enemy general sitting behind the lines the entire time units are engaged in melee and they end up killing like 5 models.

[Sn3z]

The ashigaru matchlocks have only real practical application in seige defence, lvl3+ castles give you 4 walls protected a inner keep or you can put them on the steepest pars of walls and where they wont be shot by bows., I would only recruit four units per garrison because of 4 walls, matchlock ashigaru will do work in seige defence with bows when you slow down the AI getting in the upper levels with melee units.

If you want to use matchlocks outside , then you will be needing matchlock samurai, again I wouldn't recruit alot, only two units per army, stretch out their formation as much as possible, and double deploy them over each other. Pop rapid volley, before enemy units come into aura, and deploy the matchlock samurai in the middle of your army with bows behind them. Its also very important you toggle guard mode, on the matchlocks, if you don't toggle guard they will be useless, because if they actually get into melee they will stop shooting

Matchlock ashigaru and samurai both have low reload, however matchlock samurai scale better by +10, matchlock samurai have like x2 better base accuracy.

[Beerbaronkw]

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Originally posted by Beerbaronkw:

I'm probably not going to try ro use guns anymore, it's not worth the time and money to recruit them when archers can do ranged combat better on average.

Hopefully I can turn around the damage done by the Shoni and the Hattori and succeed.

Since you already have access to them, they'd be worth putting in castles that you think are going to come under attack. They absolutely will pull their weight and then some in defensive sieges.

I have the nanban port at my capital. it's just not worth to time and money to recruit them then ferry them over to the mainland. If the enemy makes it onto my island and I have nothing left on the mainland the campaign is lost anyway as it's already 1563.

[markeason]

Any unit that rakes up more than 700 kills in a battle, is worth its weight in koku in my book:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2657398853

IIRC, this was either a re-fight of the battle, or I fought the battle again later as I distinctly recall the unit getting close to 900 kills in one of the fights.

I generally don't have more than a couple of matchlock units in an army and would have 5 or 6 bow units as the main missile contingent. The matchlocks are for denying areas to the enemy or, at least making it an unhealthy space for them to enter.

As others have stated, they are best placed on the side of a hill, either with a defensive line in front of them at a lower elevation, or immediately behind them, such that you can advance the defensive line/retreat the matchlocks through the defensive line, when they are threatened.

[markeason]

Originally posted by Beerbaronkw:

I have the nanban port at my capital. it's just not worth to time and money to recruit them then ferry them over to the mainland. If the enemy makes it onto my island and I have nothing left on the mainland the campaign is lost anyway as it's already 1563.

Even on the short campaign you have until 1575 to complete the campaign, that's almost 50 turns - which is plenty of time to turn things around and win.

[Beerbaronkw]

Originally posted by markeason:

Originally posted by Beerbaronkw:

I have the nanban port at my capital. it's just not worth to time and money to recruit them then ferry them over to the mainland. If the enemy makes it onto my island and I have nothing left on the mainland the campaign is lost anyway as it's already 1563.

Even on the short campaign you have until 1575 to complete the campaign, that's almost 50 turns - which is plenty of time to turn things around and win.

I'm going to keep fighting until I have nothing left but with most of my armies dead I could lose a lot while recruiting. The west isn't as much if a thread but the Hattori have 2 full stacks is the east with nothing to impede their progress. As long as I can keep control of the sea they shouldn't be able to reach the capital.

[Xaphnir]

Originally posted by Beerbaronkw:

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Since you already have access to them, they'd be worth putting in castles that you think are going to come under attack. They absolutely will pull their weight and then some in defensive sieges.

I have the nanban port at my capital. it's just not worth to time and money to recruit them then ferry them over to the mainland. If the enemy makes it onto my island and I have nothing left on the mainland the campaign is lost anyway as it's already 1563.

1563 isn't that late. And if you can get matchlock units into your castles, even if you're still on the back foot you can use their strength in defensive sieges to stop the bleeding or at least make the enemy pay greatly to take your settlements. And Tosa isn't that far from the Kansai region, just a few turns if you transport them on ships.

But whatever happens, just remember to learn the lessons of this campaign. You (mostly) control when the realm divide happens, so don't trigger it before you want to.

[Beerbaronkw]

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Originally posted by Beerbaronkw:

I have the nanban port at my capital. it's just not worth to time and money to recruit them then ferry them over to the mainland. If the enemy makes it onto my island and I have nothing left on the mainland the campaign is lost anyway as it's already 1563.

1563 isn't that late. And if you can get matchlock units into your castles, even if you're still on the back foot you can use their strength in defensive sieges to stop the bleeding or at least make the enemy pay greatly to take your settlements. And Tosa isn't that far from the Kansai region, just a few turns if you transport them on ships.

But whatever happens, just remember to learn the lessons of this campaign. You (mostly) control when the realm divide happens, so don't trigger it before you want to.

I knew it was coming as I had seen a few videos before buying the game but I wasn't paying attention to my notoriety, but if I do lose everything on the mainland I can at least fall back on my navy to defend the island. if it gets to that point I could make good use out of the matchlocks as I won't meed to ferry them over anymore.