Is FOTS broken?

[lemming3k]

First time trying FOTS and although I'm holding my own I seem to be experiencing a lot of issues:

Line infantry seems useless. Sometimes it doesn't even fire and gets shot up pretty bad by Levy units? Veterans don't seem to matter? I know guns kill anyone pretty equally but shouldn't they fire faster or more accurately with better soldiers and be harder to rout? Infantry and cannons fire at the sides of enemies not the middle (which I recall being a bug in early Empire that was fixed)? Am I missing some huge piece of the puzzle here?

Veteran ships don't perform better in combat? Copper plating doesn't give extra speed or any benefit? Fast reload doesn't appear to work? Cannon amounts keep changing, so it says 4 on left and 7 on right, so you move to fire from the right and suddenly it's 4 on right and 7 on left??? Even bombarding seems ineffectual from my ships but the AI is devastating!

How does the AI afford multiple full stacks, a navy, all province improvements, and have 0 issues with public order/happiness? Is this just part of their AI bonus?

Why does the AI suddenly change sides? I thought the idea was certain factions are for and some against but it seems even the major ones can change? Shouldn't that really mess up their happiness at least?
I'm wondering what the purpose of the feature is if we should basically ignore it and attack everyone anyway?

[doneduardo44]

I can answer the change sides part of your question. As far as I can tell, clans change side when their is no opportunity for expansion because they are surrounded by allies or clans of the same allegience. It happens on both sides, so I don't think it's limited to the shogun side. I'm pretty sure this is especially true for major clans. For example, the Nagaoka who love to expand early, will change sides if they get boxed in by the Aizu/Jozai/Obama clans. Just about every time this happens to the Nagaoka they switch sides. I'm pretty sure I would do the same thing if I found under the same circumstances as the player.

[lemming3k]

doneduardo44 a écrit :

I can answer the change sides part of your question. As far as I can tell, clans change side when their is no opportunity for expansion because they are surrounded by allies or clans of the same allegience. It happens on both sides, so I don't think it's limited to the shogun side. I'm pretty sure this is especially true for major clans. For example, the Nagaoka who love to expand early, will change sides if they get boxed in by the Aizu/Jozai/Obama clans. Just about every time this happens to the Nagaoka they switch sides. I'm pretty sure I would do the same thing if I found under the same circumstances as the player.

Damn. That seems pretty stupid. It would make more sense for them to gain military access or use boats and attack their actual enemies. Are they programmed not to attack the same allegiance at all? Even that would be easier than switching sides. I suppose if they don't get an unhappiness penalty then it doesn't matter to them. Does it affect vassals?
It seems like this could be manipulated though. Now I can make the AI declare war on me. Maybe even convert to the right side if I let them get surrounded by their own.

[Enigmatic]

The only thing that is broken in FOTS is Revolver Cav.

[BastardSword]

Line infantry turn into machine gun units if you get kneel fire, and they will destroy everything. Until then they are pretty vulnerable especially to melee units. Without kneel fire they are better than levy infantry mainly because they have a way better reload rate, but otherwise their stats aren't much higher.

Units won't fire unless the ground in front of them is completely flat or they are higher than the enemy. The maps in FOTS are covered with tiny bumps and hills that you can't see unless you zoom in. If there's even a tiny rise in the ground in front of them, your units will just stand there not firing, even if it looks like they should be able to. It can be pretty annoying. If it keeps being an issue, just give a direct fire order to your unit so they will move forward until they can shoot.

Yes I have noticed that infantry and artillery will usually fire at the edges of units, instead of at their center. Artillery in particular are really bad about doing this. Archers in Shogun 2 will do this sometimes as well.

Copper plating gives no defensive benefit and only affects movement range on the campaign map. You unlock the tech and supposedly it gives all your ships a movement bonus, but then there's a whole set of copper-plated ships, do they get even more of a bonus, or is it the same and they're redundant? In any case only ironclads have a defensive stat bonus over wooden ships.

I have written enough to make a novel about how bad the AI is about endlessly spamming ships. You will never be able to spend enough money to wipe them all out, and you will spend way more on repairing ships and ports than you'd ever make from having the ports not destroyed for a turn or two. It ruined the game for me for many years until I realized that you can just 100% ignore the naval side of FOTS. Let the AI waste money on ships and destroying your ports, and just focus on the land side of the game. You can blockade the ports at Nagano and Satsuma and make foreign trade ports there, just park three kaiyo maru at the entrance to the harbor. With AP shot they will destroy anything that attacks them. Get the two techs that give extra growth to your economy and you'll make plenty of money.

The AI changing sides thing is pretty irritating and often it just seems to happen when a clan next to you is on your team. After a few turns they'll flip and attack you. If you are a shogunate clan in the north like Aizu or Sendai, I guarantee you that Matsumae will flip to imperial and annoy you. Just attack them first and you'll make lots of money off holding all of Hokkaido.

[markeason]

Some really useful information in this thread.

I tried FotS but gave up on it because it just seemed too random with clans flipping sides. Now I understand why, I may go back and re-visit it sometime.

[lemming3k]

LocalGNUhost a écrit :

The only thing that is broken in FOTS is Revolver Cav.

I suspect I'm not using them right but when I tried them they didn't shoot. Less surprisingly their charge is weak AF but probably because their unit size is tiny. Effectively making them useless.

BastardSword a écrit :

Line infantry turn into machine gun units if you get kneel fire, and they will destroy everything. Until then they are pretty vulnerable especially to melee units. Without kneel fire they are better than levy infantry mainly because they have a way better reload rate, but otherwise their stats aren't much higher.

I assume that's comparable to fire by rank? I honestly thought the units would be a bit better. I understand the style of fighting is somewhat new to Japan, but guns certainly aren't and the foreigners teaching the Japanese would have used a lot of these things as standard at this point.
I guess using Levy until the higher tier units become available with kneel is the only way forward. At least they replenish quickly.

Units won't fire unless the ground in front of them is completely flat or they are higher than the enemy. The maps in FOTS are covered with tiny bumps and hills that you can't see unless you zoom in. If there's even a tiny rise in the ground in front of them, your units will just stand there not firing, even if it looks like they should be able to. It can be pretty annoying. If it keeps being an issue, just give a direct fire order to your unit so they will move forward until they can shoot.

They definitely had LOS, but it sounds like even a mole hill can affect them. That's pretty awful design and going to be difficult to plan for. Worse when there are melee units to worry about.

Yes I have noticed that infantry and artillery will usually fire at the edges of units, instead of at their center. Artillery in particular are really bad about doing this. Archers in Shogun 2 will do this sometimes as well.

It's a shame they haven't fixed it. Empire was much improved when they did.

Copper plating gives no defensive benefit and only affects movement range on the campaign map. You unlock the tech and supposedly it gives all your ships a movement bonus, but then there's a whole set of copper-plated ships, do they get even more of a bonus, or is it the same and they're redundant? In any case only ironclads have a defensive stat bonus over wooden ships.

I started with one, but it doesn't seem like it's a big deal. So much doesn't seem to be explained or effective. In battle actions. Veterans etc.

I have written enough to make a novel about how bad the AI is about endlessly spamming ships. You will never be able to spend enough money to wipe them all out, and you will spend way more on repairing ships and ports than you'd ever make from having the ports not destroyed for a turn or two. It ruined the game for me for many years until I realized that you can just 100% ignore the naval side of FOTS. Let the AI waste money on ships and destroying your ports, and just focus on the land side of the game. You can blockade the ports at Nagano and Satsuma and make foreign trade ports there, just park three kaiyo maru at the entrance to the harbor. With AP shot they will destroy anything that attacks them. Get the two techs that give extra growth to your economy and you'll make plenty of money.

I'll have a look through the tech tree again. The big issue is losing trade money. The cost of repairing just the trade port after 1 turn is huge + lost income, and you can't really afford the ships to defend it.
Unless you are min/maxing taxes every turn, that loss of money is substantial. Then again, not getting stabbed in the back would help. I imagine my second play will be better, but ship battles suck compared to base Shogun, Empire etc.

The AI changing sides thing is pretty irritating and often it just seems to happen when a clan next to you is on your team. After a few turns they'll flip and attack you. If you are a shogunate clan in the north like Aizu or Sendai, I guarantee you that Matsumae will flip to imperial and annoy you. Just attack them first and you'll make lots of money off holding all of Hokkaido.

Yeah, next time I'll just eliminate everyone. I know expecting the AI to be your BFF will end in tears but the game's set up like it's an ideological split 3vs3 in a way that hasn't really been seen since crusading in MTW2. Feels as sensible as Italy declaring Jihad on France.

[Eddie G]

lemming3k a écrit :

doneduardo44 a écrit :

I can answer the change sides part of your question. As far as I can tell, clans change side when their is no opportunity for expansion because they are surrounded by allies or clans of the same allegience. It happens on both sides, so I don't think it's limited to the shogun side. I'm pretty sure this is especially true for major clans. For example, the Nagaoka who love to expand early, will change sides if they get boxed in by the Aizu/Jozai/Obama clans. Just about every time this happens to the Nagaoka they switch sides. I'm pretty sure I would do the same thing if I found under the same circumstances as the player.

Damn. That seems pretty stupid. It would make more sense for them to gain military access or use boats and attack their actual enemies. Are they programmed not to attack the same allegiance at all? Even that would be easier than switching sides. I suppose if they don't get an unhappiness penalty then it doesn't matter to them. Does it affect vassals?
It seems like this could be manipulated though. Now I can make the AI declare war on me. Maybe even convert to the right side if I let them get surrounded by their own.

I'm the same person as doneduaardo44, so I'll answer on my main.

No they are not programmed to change sides. They are programmed to provide a challenge to the player. I think it's stupid too, but the AI plays like it's the main campaign (sengoku) in FOTS. On both sides it's normal, at the beginning of the campaign, for clans of the same allegiance going to war with each other, ultimately all clans are trying to expand, so they will. Also the other major clans will sometimes offer an alliance, think real hard before you accept because they will try and block your progress, on both sides. I am currently play8ing as the Saga and the Tosa keep trying to ally with me, because we are at war with the same clans, but they are trying to take provinces on the mainland to block you. As long as I keep saying no, until I AM READY TO ALLY, they won't take any provinces. It's annoying, but after all it's a game. A good player adjusts, not expect the AI to adjust or be modded to make it easier on the player.

[lemming3k]

Eddie G a écrit :

I'm the same person as doneduaardo44, so I'll answer on my main.

No they are not programmed to change sides. They are programmed to provide a challenge to the player. I think it's stupid too, but the AI plays like it's the main campaign (sengoku) in FOTS. On both sides it's normal for clans of the same allegiance going to war with each other, ultimately all clans are trying to expand so they will. Also the other major clans will sometimes offer an alliance, think real hard before you accept because they will try and block your progress, on both sides. I am currently play8ing as the Saga and the Tosa keep trying to ally with me, because we are at war with the same clans, but they are trying to take provinces on the mainland to block you. As long as I keep saying no, until I AM READY TO ALLY, they won't take any provinces. It's annoying, but after all it's a game. A good player adjusts, not expect the AI to adjust or be modded to make it easier on the player.

What I mean is, is there a distinction between the way they find targets, and the point where they decide to switch sides? They seemed to have no problems attacking single province nations regardless of their allegiance, but when it came to me, they switched sides? So presumably they are programmed to attack small nations first, but only switch sides when it comes to only having land borders with a major power.
I think the confusion/frustration is that it's framed as a team Vs game. You even seem to have shared victory conditions - so that implies the major powers wouldn't switch sides or fight. At least not until whatever the equivalent is of realm divide.

Knowing the conditions you can of course adjust to either:
A) Kill everything. It's a free for all not a Vs.
B) Funnel them where you want. If you always leave a path they will follow that. You could even use them as a buffer for a while. Or you can get them to take the diplo hit of declaring war by boxing them in.

I mean I wasn't prepared for it, but once the AI finishes failing to press their advantage as usual, I'll surely end up better off for it.

[Eddie G]

lemming3k a écrit :

Eddie G a écrit :

I'm the same person as doneduaardo44, so I'll answer on my main.

No they are not programmed to change sides. They are programmed to provide a challenge to the player. I think it's stupid too, but the AI plays like it's the main campaign (sengoku) in FOTS. On both sides it's normal for clans of the same allegiance going to war with each other, ultimately all clans are trying to expand so they will. Also the other major clans will sometimes offer an alliance, think real hard before you accept because they will try and block your progress, on both sides. I am currently play8ing as the Saga and the Tosa keep trying to ally with me, because we are at war with the same clans, but they are trying to take provinces on the mainland to block you. As long as I keep saying no, until I AM READY TO ALLY, they won't take any provinces. It's annoying, but after all it's a game. A good player adjusts, not expect the AI to adjust or be modded to make it easier on the player.

What I mean is, is there a distinction between the way they find targets, and the point where they decide to switch sides? They seemed to have no problems attacking single province nations regardless of their allegiance, but when it came to me, they switched sides? So presumably they are programmed to attack small nations first, but only switch sides when it comes to only having land borders with a major power.
I think the confusion/frustration is that it's framed as a team Vs game. You even seem to have shared victory conditions - so that implies the major powers wouldn't switch sides or fight. At least not until whatever the equivalent is of realm divide.

Knowing the conditions you can of course adjust to either:
A) Kill everything. It's a free for all not a Vs.
B) Funnel them where you want. If you always leave a path they will follow that. You could even use them as a buffer for a while. Or you can get them to take the diplo hit of declaring war by boxing them in.

I mean I wasn't prepared for it, but once the AI finishes failing to press their advantage as usual, I'll surely end up better off for it.

To be honest there are too many variables involved for me to do more than guess, but I would say yes there is a distinction between the way they find targets. I am assuming we are talking about hard or higher. Clans change sides all the time and they do whatever they do, and it has nothing to do with the player. Clans around the player, though, will probably do it in response to whatever the player is doing. I've had games, where clans will change sides for no apparent reason too. But it's usually clans I can't even see yet. As far as major clans, while you are trying to work together, at the same time each clan is competing for the higher ranks and possibly be the Vanguard. Kinda like Patton with the Soviets. He who takes the prize has more honor. War is the ultimate competition so it stands to reason that allies will compete with each other, against the enemy. Once you hit a certain point, i've had it happen before realm divide a few times, then you are all working together and your allies are your allies till the end. But that's the end game, up until then, it's pretty much like Vanilla, especially on the Shogunate side.

[Sn3z]

I had most, if not all of what your experiencing:

Fast reload on ships does do something, but it not clear how much your ships reload rate goes up I think its double (reload rate is absent from stat card for some reason), try engaging the AI without toggling it you will lose since the AI enables it or you will take terrible damage to your ships if you don't lose.

Artillery sometimes targets outside of units, just change their target to another unit usually fixes it, aim for clusters.

ranks probably upgrades some stats on ships some maybe which are hidden in the stat card, accuracy and reload, try looking at the stat cards you will probably see some stats changed, however vet impact on naval fight is just minimal, as battles are just so fast, especially if you use explosive shots on wooden and copper. There's few ships which can stand up to AP rounds from a frigate, save the European ones, which I haven't faced yet..

I have had the swapping gun placement on ships issue recently, I would just say;
If your going into a naval battle with damaged ships with low crew models your doing things wrong, if you let a naval battle get to the point where your ship/s has lost a big chunk of men, and taken huge damage, your actually wasting your time, even bothering with that naval battle. Don't allow that oversight in design to be a factor, its happening because you lost to many men and have more cannons which need to be manned, there must be a cycle thing going on over all guns that must be reloaded and its happening after salvo from either side your crew moves to the left and vice versa, in alternating.

Ai gets like discount on unit upkeep so it can out out more units, enjoy...

The gun units which fire to sides of unit formations I may have seen, always double your gun lines(unit formation over unit formation slightly offset to allow both to fire at the same time), you can play on levy infantry all game if you want, doing that is like kneel fire, especially if you double line infantry.

[BastardSword]

lemming3k a écrit :

The big issue is losing trade money.

The issue is that you'll never be able to protect all your ports. Hiring a massive number of ships to protect them and endlessly spending money on repairs to your ports will cost you FAR more than you'll ever make from trade income. And even if you somehow protect all your ports, some garbage clan at the other end of Japan can just blockade all your trade with one ship, especially your trade with the western powers. And in order to protect your ports you'll have to manually play out each GLACIALLY SLOW naval battle because if you auto-resolve you'll be massively penalized and gradually lose all your ships even if you have massive superiority. Life is too short to play out all those battles.

On normal the AI is somewhat chill, but on hard they go completely insane and endlessly build ships. You sink them all, then they build more the next turn. Doesn't matter how poor they are. Doesn't matter that historically, every single ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ fishing village in 19th century Japan was not a massive harbor pumping out multiple giant warships every year. The fact is that Japan had to order these ships from Europe, it took years to build just one, and they only had one Kaiyo Maru, one Kanrin Maru, etc. Every ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ local daimyo in Japan was not building and maintaining a fleet of like 20 warships.

Anyway yeah just ignore your ports, ignore all the stupid coastal buildings like copper mines and clay pits that endlessly get bombarded. Anything from Ugo northwards seems to be too far for the AI to bother with, so holding Hokkaido is good because you can build up all the buildings there and the AI usually won't endlessly bombard them. Blockade Nagano and Satsuma if you want, as I described. Get those two techs that give +2 global growth, can't remember the name, and you'll be making 10,000 koku a turn without any worries.

[Sn3z]

BastardSword a écrit :

There's no sea attrition in FoS, you can stop ships from completely entering your waters by building out towards the edge of the map, its forces the AI to consolidate its ships into big stacks instead of annoying singles, so battles are fewer and more full stack, also stops AI landing units behind.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3063691528

[lemming3k]

BastardSword a écrit :

The issue is that you'll never be able to protect all your ports. Hiring a massive number of ships to protect them and endlessly spending money on repairs to your ports will cost you FAR more than you'll ever make from trade income. And even if you somehow protect all your ports, some garbage clan at the other end of Japan can just blockade all your trade with one ship, especially your trade with the western powers. And in order to protect your ports you'll have to manually play out each GLACIALLY SLOW naval battle because if you auto-resolve you'll be massively penalized and gradually lose all your ships even if you have massive superiority. Life is too short to play out all those battles.

Doesn't it only matter that you defend the trade port for income, not the others? Also if you start in Kyushu it seems easier.
Not realistic but I guess we have to work with the design choices.

Get those two techs that give +2 global growth, can't remember the name, and you'll be making 10,000 koku a turn without any worries.

Not sure I even have them available yet, but then don't you also need some of the others quickly like kneel fire? I remember on empire fire by rank and bayonets were game changers. Then it's just economic all the way.

[BastardSword]

I always rush modernization so I can get kneel fire ASAP, but that is probably the only warfare tech I really prioritize, otherwise I go for the left side techs that give things like happiness, repression, and economic growth.

[Sn3z]

Kneel fire is only effective if your using alot of line infantry per stack 8 units+ at least and you simply need to block up your units, so kneel fire will be able to keep all you models shooting in compact 12x12 squares, however 8 units of line infantry, can be covered in apart by simply spreading 2 out as long as possible and then putting another 2 over them, you will get roughly same effect but the kneel will gradually start to out kill I would suspect, blocky infantry is also going to get demolished by artillery, wide formations are all round better typically in early mid game.

Also remember the superior Sn3z meta, if you modernize to quickly you will potentially lose out on a ton of banked koku for further investing into generating more koku, and thats because of the +50% income to all buildings event you get when modernising to level 2.