Ninja are useless?

[Тривиум]

I am playing Chokosabe campaign on normal difficulty and my Ninja are constantly getting killed by enemy Metsuke agents. At best I can get them to rank 2 with 2 kills in a row, but after a mission they can't run away and what end up happening is they get killed. Maybe I need to constantly relocate them between cities in order for them not to be discovered, BUT I cannot do that since the moment I end my turn they are dead...
It seems like for some stupid reason the enemy AI decides to have 2-3 metsuke concentrated between two cities which seems unfair, as even when I specifically kill some metsuke other constantly pop up and kill my assassin.
So I spend 500 gold + 150-300 per mission for the possibility to kill 1-2 rank 1 generals, but this amount can be far better spent on real army.
Also if I decide to sabotage the enemy army what good is it if it just replenishes in 1-2 turns or am I missing something?
What is the proper way to use Ninja and not feel like I wasted on average 1000 credits for nothing?
I know very well that killing a general is far better than nothing, but considering how fast those ninja die I can just send 4 Yari ashigaru to kill it off and still have some leftover army? One could argue Ninja has no upkeep, but they have quite a big expense per mission!

[markeason]

OK

1. Recruit agents as early as you can in the campaign. Try to get one of each type (ninja, monk, metsuke) before recruiting more of the same type. If you recruit early, your agents will have more experience than the AI agents and you will be able to do to the AI agents what they are doing to you.

2. Do not send your agents out on missions until they have increased in level and got some skill. Put them in an army or fort and they will gain 3 points each turn until, after 7 turns they will increase in level.

3. Spending skill points (other people will have different opinions, but this works for me).

Metsuke: 2 points in Magistrate (overseeing towns). Leave him in a fort in a high wealth province to increase your tax income.

Retainer: Take one that gives overseeing towns bonus first choice, or apprehending second choice.

Ninja: Either put 2 points in Assassin or put 1 point in Saboteur and do not spend the second point (when he is promoted a second time you can put three points in Misdirection).

Retainer: Take anything that adds to assassination skill.

Monk: Either put 2 points in Militant (inspiring army for extra morale); or put 1 point in Militant and 1 point in Inspiring (inspiring town). At the next promotion put 2 points in Religious adviser (converting characters). Later put points in skills that give inciting unrest and converting characters and provinces.

Retainer: Anything that gives bonus to character or province conversion. Anything that reduces chance of being assassinated.

4. How to use the agents?

Ninja. Don't start assassinating generals until your ninja is about level 4 or 5, the risk of losing him is too high. Use the ninja to sabotage buildings of clans you are at war with, or owned by rebel provinces, or sabotaging small armies, (cheap and high success rate) to build experience. If he gets the chance, assassinate monks of clans you are at war with. Stay away from enemy metsuke. Operate with a monk near your ninja.

When your ninja is higher rank, you can use him to sabotage larger armies. The reason for the sabotage is not to reduce the strength of the enemy army, it is to stop it from moving or taking part in a battle.

For example, if you have a single army and the enemy has two armies, you use the ninja to sabotage one of the enemy armies and when you attack the other one, the sabotaged army cannot join the battle as reinforcement.


Monk: The main role for the monk is converting enemy metsuke. They have a very high success rate and there is no cost. I use them as protection for my ninja when I send agents on the offensive against an enemy clan.

Other than that, they can passively provide morale boost to army, or convert provinces to your religion. If playing as the Otomo or Ikko Ikki, they can be used to incite revolts in provinces of different religion. If playing as the other clans, they are less likely to be inciting revolts and more likely to be converting provinces that you capture from the Ikko Ikki or a Christian clan.

5. And to show you that it works, this is the record at the end of a Tokugawa campaign in which I lost no agents and killed 58 enemy agents.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2546843394

[markeason]

One other really important use for the ninja is scouting. He doesn't have to be performing a mission all the time. I have them travelling around the lands of other clans so that I know where all the enemy armies are. That information is very important when planning to attack.

[Тривиум]

Great performance, so thanks for sharing your experience. So I guess I was just too impatient then about assassinations...

[markeason]

Probably. I don't use my ninja for assassination of generals until they are ***** (5 star) or higher.

When they are this powerful and they have maximum points in assassination skills, they can assassinate enemy generals more safely.

In one campaign I assassinated the Hojo Daimyo and his heir every turn for a year. Each turn they were replaced and I assassinated them again. I think I only had one failure during that time :)

[Eat3n]

What Mark said is absolutely 100% spot on, i follow the same path he described.

One thing i'd add: Have multiple agents. Don't recruit 1 ninja, recruit as many as you can. You have to have the ninja den, but that's not a problem because i build a lot of them across cities because you get money and a happy population. If you have multiple ninjas you have multiple attacks. Ninja 1 fails to kill enemy Metsuke...well, use ninjas 2-5. Rinse and repeat.

As for perks and such: I try to have strictly assassination ninjas and separate sabotage ninjas instead of mix and match with perks because then you can really "increase the chance of success" i put it in quotes because the AI for agents across TW games has been ass for years and you can have agents with 80-90% chance for success fail multiple turns in a row...hmm, clearly that isn't an 80-90% chance of success then is it?

Originally posted by markeason:

In one campaign I assassinated the Hojo Daimyo and his heir every turn for a year. Each turn they were replaced and I assassinated them again. I think I only had one failure during that time :)

A man after my own heart, i have done the same. In the original Rome Total War if you assassinated ALL family members then the faction died and became rebel. It's slightly irritating that in Shogun 2 there is ALWAYS new family members that just magically appear after repeated turns of assassinations.

[markeason]

Eat3N

Thanks for adding the clarification. Yes, absolutely get the maximum number of agents eventually, but I like one of each first (possible exception being the Date who probably don't need a monk as early as other clans).

Also, when possible, get the building upgrade (Pilgrim Hostel on Holy Site province; Magistrate on Philosophical Tradition province; and Burakumin Village on Ninja clan province) so that you can recruit agents with +2 levels of experience.

[markeason]

On ninjas, all of mine always end with

Building sabotage 1 point
Army sabotage 3 points
Assassination All the rest of the points (only 1 point in Exotic weapons so that I can get Notorious Killer).

I usually start with the sabotage skills because it is the safer and more efficient way of gaining experience, but, if I am near a clan with agents, I might start one out with assassination to take care of them.

I am very aggressive with agents when playing as the Hattori, because they can get level 3 agents of all types very early, so my Hattori ninjas are split between sabotage or assassination as the start, but they still all end up at the same place :)

[BastardSword]

Yep ninjas can be a bit useless against high-level metsukes, try monks instead.

I find that assassination is the most useful ninja skill, so I put as many points into that as possible. Killing enemy agents is always useful. Killing high-level generals is VERY useful. And wiping out all of an army's generals makes an army incredibly weak.

I don't use army sabotage very often, but it can be REALLY crucial now and then. If an enemy army keeps running away from you, sabotage it and then you can catch up to it and wipe it out. As someone said, if the AI is spamming you with multiple armies marching together, sabotage one and you can attack the other without having the first army reinforce it. Sabotaging an army on your lands in the winter will make it lose men to attrition and buy you some time to heal your own army. Best army sabotage move is to sabotage an army on your lands, then send your army around it to take over their last province, instantly wiping out the army that was stuck on your land.

Building sabotage is pretty pointless, but putting one point into it so you can put points into army sabotage is worth it. I always put two ninja skill points into Misdirection (army sabotage) and put the rest into the right hand of the skill tree, so my ninja has as many points in assassination as possible.

Giving armies more movement range can be really useful but it seems like ninjas passively get better at this as they level up, so I don't proritize giving them skills or retainers that improve this.

Chosokabe is not very far away from the ninja provinces like Kii, Omi and Iga. Kii at least is easy to get. If you have a Burakumin village and a sake den then every ninja agent you hire starts at 3 stars, which can be very useful if they keep dying. Getting a 1 star ninja to level 3 can take a long time. If you don't want to take Kii then just find some rebel province or garbage npc clan and keep spamming ninja actions against them to level up your ninjas.

[Sn3z]

Meanwhile metsuke can apprehend and also kill for 0..........

[markeason]

Originally posted by Sn3z:

Meanwhile metsuke can apprehend and also kill for 0..........

Is the wrong answer.

You have to include the contribution he would have made to tax income as being lost income if he is not doing it.

The cost of him performing the action you describe can run into 1,000's if he is away from his tax collection role for a couple of turns.

[Sn3z]

Originally posted by markeason:

Originally posted by Sn3z:

Meanwhile metsuke can apprehend and also kill for 0..........

Is the wrong answer.

You have to include the contribution he would have made to tax income as being lost income if he is not doing it.

The cost of him performing the action you describe can run into 1,000's if he is away from his tax collection role for a couple of turns.

Only If you have anchored him to a province and made him integral part of supporting unit upkeep does that actually matter, since keeping a base koku float can be rolled over for investments, not inflated by metsuke.

[markeason]

Originally posted by Sn3z:

Originally posted by markeason:

Is the wrong answer.

You have to include the contribution he would have made to tax income as being lost income if he is not doing it.

The cost of him performing the action you describe can run into 1,000's if he is away from his tax collection role for a couple of turns.

Only If you have anchored him to a province and made him integral part of supporting unit upkeep does that actually matter, since keeping a base koku float can be rolled over for investments, not inflated by metsuke.

I agree with all that.

But it is still incorrect to state there is zero cost for using a metsuke in that role.

There clearly is a cost.

[BastardSword]

I would prefer to use monks and ninjas to get rid of enemy agents, but now and then a metsuke can be useful if you are in a sticky situation, like where your ninjas all get wounded or killed and all you have in the area is a metsuke, and an enemy agent is being really annoying.

High-level generals and agents are priceless so it can be worth thousands to keep them alive.

Also if a metsuke is lower level, it can be worth using them against enemy agents to help them level up so they can put more skill points into town management, so they start getting you ubertaxes sooner.

[Sn3z]

Originally posted by markeason:

Originally posted by Sn3z:

Only If you have anchored him to a province and made him integral part of supporting unit upkeep does that actually matter, since keeping a base koku float can be rolled over for investments, not inflated by metsuke.

I agree with all that.

But it is still incorrect to state there is zero cost for using a metsuke in that role.

There clearly is a cost.

An Xtremely negligible cost.

[Sn3z]

Originally posted by BastardSword:

Also if a metsuke is lower level, it can be worth using them against enemy agents to help them level up so they can put more skill points into town management, so they start getting you ubertaxes sooner.

The way I see it is like this, if you have no school, its not close or even it is but your not banking*heh* on it, your first few metsukes should be spec'd into basically a hybrid role which leans more into apprehending and relegating town management to secondary(this will turn later into primary on level 3), you need two points into apprehension(pickup town management retainer if you get it, or -assassination) if you got apprehend retainer choose that and only put one point into apprenhesion skill and go two points in town mangement, so it balances out.

Each level of metsuke makes them get stronger to take out. Im not sure on the percentages, but a level 4 metsuke is no joke with decent apprehend, you can let low levels agents opposing you try to take you out first, and simply kill them from settlements which doesn't interfere with tax collection. So even in mid to late game where your metsukes are in settlements primarily, the apprehend skill doesn't end up being a waste, you can also disband some metsuke and retrain them at school for the town management skill lines only but this is actually isn't really needed.

The 3-4 time I got into big agent war with the AI, I have never lost with metsukes always being always being clutch, even killing monks. If the AI has a same level metsuke it can come down to who has the better apprehend but outright killing I think seems harder, I don't really understand what determines an apprehend or kill with the metsuke. Level disparity seems like it......