The Ashikaga Shogunate

[Ivar]

The goal to be Shogun never was fun for me. Now I am playing the Hattori and I just try to defend Kyoto while trying to keep the good relations with the Ashikaga Clan.

Is this actually possible or am I wasting time to do the impossible?
Did anyone try this before?

[Captain Pentium]

Eventually you have to take Kyoto to win, so it will eventually fail and you'll lose. Unless you let someone else take the capital and you take it back from them.. but then you failed your own objective of keeping the shogunate alive.

[easytarget]

Originally posted by Ivar the Boneless:

Is this actually possible or am I wasting time to do the impossible?
Did anyone try this before?

I mean feel free to play the game any way you want, but if the purpose of the question is to ask if you can "win the game" that's easily answered: look at the victory conditions the game clearly states for you and you have your answer.

In no great surprise to anyone, the answer is no.

[markeason]

Ivar

This sounds a really interesting challenge you have set yourself.

Are you allowing yourself to take any provinces, if so, how many - and are they particular provinces or just a number?

If the number of provinces you can capture is not limited, you will eventually trigger Realm Divide at which point the shogunate and everyone will eventually declare war on you.

You could still play to try to stop anyone else taking Kyoto, even if you were at war with the Ashikaga (they won't leave Kyoto to attack you).

The biggest problem I think is that, if you are not able to take more land, then it will be a lot of turns of defensive battles.

It is certainly possible to take all of Japan and leave the shogunate intact, but they will be at war with you - even though they remain in Kyoto.

As others have stated, the game will not give you a win for this, but I don't think that is what interests you. To me it seems you are just looking for a different challenge - in which case, it should be fun.

[BastardSword]

About 99% of the time the AI clans will never invade Kyoto and overthrow Ashikaga. It can happen but it's just really rare.

In general if you are located near Kyoto it's a good idea to ally with Ashikaga so you can travel through the Kyoto province. It saves you having to go slowly through the mountainous and forested areas south of Kyoto, like Iga. It's extremely useful for Hattori to ally with Ashikaga right at the beginning of a campaign for this reason.

[markeason]

Originally posted by BastardSword:

In general if you are located near Kyoto it's a good idea to ally with Ashikaga so you can travel through the Kyoto province. It saves you having to go slowly through the mountainous and forested areas south of Kyoto, like Iga. It's extremely useful for Hattori to ally with Ashikaga right at the beginning of a campaign for this reason.

And (as you pointed out to me for which I am eternally grateful) it gets you insane unit replenishment :)

Originally posted by BastardSword:

About 99% of the time the AI clans will never invade Kyoto and overthrow Ashikaga. It can happen but it's just really rare.

I think that may depend on one (or a combination) of three things. Either game difficulty, how long it takes the player to get to the point they can take Kyoto and whether the clan is major (playable) or minor.

I don't think I have ever seen a minor clan become shogun, even though I have often seen one of them do very well in the game. So taking Kyoto and becoming Shogun may not be highly prioritised for them.

If it is only prioritised by the major (playable) clans, they tend to take each other out quite quickly meaning that, by the time I take Kyoto, there is typically only one or maybe two major clans left that are strong enough to have done so.

Regarding difficulty, I don't think the clans' desire to take Kyoto changes with difficulty but, what changes is the time it takes the player to get into a position to do so. This in turn is influenced by the number of major clans they need to pass through. For example, playing as a more distant (from Kyoto) clan, such as the Uesugi, or the Date, it takes longer to get into position than if playing as a central clan. Depending how aggressively I expand with these clans, I reckon the shogunate is taken before me most games on the harder game difficulties.

For the other clans, it is generally easier to get to Kyoto and so the situation arises less often - though I have had it happen when I turtled for a long time to get a late tech to unlock a unit I wanted to try for my army.

Interestingly, in spite of having seen major expansion by them, I don't think I have ever seen an Ikko Ikki or Otomo shogunate from the A.I. Maybe they are not able to do so.

After all, that would just be wrong :)

[BastardSword]

If memory serves me right, I have seen Uesugi, Shimazu, Otomo and Takeda take the shogunate as the AI. Can't remember a minor NPC clan doing it. Takeda I have seen take the shogunate a few times, the others only once I think. Kind of odd because Uesugi, Shimazu and Otomo are three clans that almost always get wiped out in the first 5-10 years of any campaign. Takeda is almost always the last major clan to fall and usually takes over most of eastern Japan, gobbling up Oda, Hojo and Uesugi along the way.

[Malkiah]

I have seen a few Otomo Shogunates in my legendary campaigns, they are a pain to deal with since at see they go around with naban ships and in land it is just waves of guns. I have never seen them use Portuguese Tercos though. But yeah it is possible for the otomo to reach a point where there are pretty much the most powerful clan in the map. I also have seen some minor clans having 20+ provinces but I don't remember any of them taking Kyoto.

In regards to the OP question, yeah it is possible to defend the Ashikaga shogunate, however defending it on the late game can be harder on harder difficulties since fighting 10+ full stacks from the east and from the west can be brutal. On harder and lower difficulties, yeah that is possible and it isn't challenging.

[markeason]

That's interesting about the Otomo. I have seen them take Kyushu and expand almost as far as Settsu, but never seen them make it to Kyoto.

The biggest pain is the Leased Land they leave you in just about every province.

Thankfully it's not often that they survive in the game :)

[Ivar]

Originally posted by markeason:

Ivar

This sounds a really interesting challenge you have set yourself.

Are you allowing yourself to take any provinces, if so, how many - and are they particular provinces or just a number?

If the number of provinces you can capture is not limited, you will eventually trigger Realm Divide at which point the shogunate and everyone will eventually declare war on you.

You could still play to try to stop anyone else taking Kyoto, even if you were at war with the Ashikaga (they won't leave Kyoto to attack you).

The biggest problem I think is that, if you are not able to take more land, then it will be a lot of turns of defensive battles.

It is certainly possible to take all of Japan and leave the shogunate intact, but they will be at war with you - even though they remain in Kyoto.

As others have stated, the game will not give you a win for this, but I don't think that is what interests you. To me it seems you are just looking for a different challenge - in which case, it should be fun.

I dont expand. I just keep Iga and defend Kyoto. Staying little and focusing all my recources on Kyoto and Iga only makes it possible for me to defeat multiple enemy stacks. But wave after wave my budget and troops get eaten. Thats the point where I loose it. Economy and Hattori hits too hard.

[markeason]

Ok

I don't think that would be possible then. Not without using every exploit known to man in the battles :)

You are also limited to only 1 ninja and get little in the way of bonuses to your units from Iga province.

Only having Iga province, which is a low wealth province, won't support much military.

Maybe you should allow yourself to have the three ninja clan provinces - Iga, Ii and Omi. At least the other two are high wealth and can give you some income - as well as a couple more ninja

[BastardSword]

Originally posted by markeason:

The biggest pain is the Leased Land they leave you in just about every province.

They build it in literally every province. I use a mod that lets me demolish leased land, because the AI is able to build LL everywhere without suffering any public order penalty due to low honor. If I did that I'd be facing constant rebellions especially considering most provinces wouldn't be converted to christianity for quite a while.

[markeason]

I haven't experienced it for a while, (a combination of Otomo not surviving, and me playing short campaigns), but I would get past it now by vassalising as many provinces as possible post-shogunate. That way the vassal can deal with the problem :)

[Ivar]

I tried to expand in a previous campaign but it is impossible for me to hold 3 provinces with the hattori. Getting Attacked from everywhere is annoying. I went out to fight the enemies using the kisho advantage but even that wasnt very effective. I think I have to play more with diplomacy and ninjas.

[markeason]

The Hattori is probably my favourite clan. It took me a long time to find the perfect campaign start for them because of the problem of being attacked from everywhere.

Agents are a big advantage for the Hattori because they are able to recruit level 3 ninja (Iga or Kii), monks (Yamoto) and metsuke (Settsu) before any other clan. They should use this to their advantage.

They have no resources to trade and no access to the trade nodes, so their economy is going to be tax of province wealth - so they need high wealth provinces Kii, Yamoto and Settsu are all good with a metsuke in them to increase tax rate. Ignore Omi province in the early game, every clan wants that and will fight you for it.

The Ikko Ikki will arrive with their monks and generals spreading their religion, but your ninja can take care of them.

And your monks can protect your ninja from enemy metsuke.

There is an easy opening move that gets the Hattori to 5 provinces in 4 - 6 turns (it is better to take 6 turns, otherwise the diplomatic penalty for expansion may cause clans to declare war on you). I wrote a guide about it if you want an easy start.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2632928722

Beware of the Bessho, Hatano and Sakai clans. They all have Daimyos that start with a random personality and this affects their behaviour and your ability to make diplomatic agreements with them.