Battles not fun for me

[Wehr Wulf]

Hey everyone <33

Im a "veteran" of a few TW titles (Empire, Napoleon, Rome/Rome 2, Attilla, Medieval 2) and enjoy them for the most part.

Shogun 2 is not bad, I like the challenge and realm divide but my issue is I dont like the battles because they go by way too fast and devolve into chaos. The cannons just obliterate entire units, have incredible accuracy & seem to reload immediately. Whenever units engage in melee the battle just devolves into a blob and any formation you mightve had is gone & I will need to spend the rest of the battle zoomed out as far as possible rapidly clicking on a units flag and moving it/attacking etc.

In other TW titles battles had better pacing (in my opinion). What use is it putting all that time and effort into all the units and animations just to sit back zoomed out and not get to see and feel any of it?
Every other TW I have played is really good in that regard, youll always have time to get a closer look at exactly whats going on. Of course you need to zoom out to get a larger picture of the situation, but I mean once you know you can get closer to certain areas of the field and watch.

Anyone know what I mean? It really feels like these battles go by in a couple minutes.
Im not saying I have any trouble winning battles, I dont, its just that theyre not interesting to me at all.

Maybe there are mods that reduce casualties or somehow slow the pace of battles a little bit?

[Sn3z]

Stat augments like armor will help and morale(its situational though depending if you have access). high losses can be tolerated with high rep rates. Game is just very fast paced, technically battles should slow down the longer the campaign goes on for but the AI is not great at recruiting strategically and if it losses high level generals and experienced units it back to square one, this is a big shortcoming of the game tbh.

[Malkiah]

Once I read canons obliterate everything, are you talking about fall of the samurai? I personally haven't played much of it to comment. But I did play a lot of the base game and a bit of rise of the samurai.

In regards to the base game, the only times I played long battles that didn't require a lot of my attention was when I played very defensive clans with a focus on naginata samurai since they don't require a lot of management and overall tactics once battle the melee battle starts. And yeah battles with yari and naginata samurai can last quite a bit of time since it is a war of attrition more than anything since they have pretty high survivability, although if you are fighting ashigaru, then the battle won't last long though. Also higher difficulties also has battles with bigger armies since the AI has extra income for that. But yeah, battles in general tends to swing one way once enemies start to rout. Like a lot of the battle is decided during the charge. So don't battle isn't so much how to fight but how you engage and what tricks you use like kisho ninja or hidden light cavalry for a pincer attack. Siege battles are also really slow paced in general, specially in heavily fortified castles.

Overall the pace of the battles changes greatly on how you fight and what you fight. Rise of the samurai has smaller scale battles in general so you might be interested in that since it is a lot less hectic.

Alos if you are interested in playing the base game with some of the major bugs fixed I recommend my purely bug fixing mod collection: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2505561026

[bkkm12]

I know how you feel, because i fight over few thousands battles. The good thing about this game is the pace (it is not mono). Also, depends on your type of troops you deployed, and the numbers of units (you or AI) have. If they have the upper hand, they will lead you and try overcome you in a fast way. In reverse, you will control your pace.

For me, different terrains play important factors. If you tend to stay in the plains, get heavy units in the front. Add some yari sam. from the flank. If you are not good at controlling the pace, press the "pause" and observe what they want to do. That is what I do, and learn. Once you get the hang of it, you don't need to pause and know what they are up to.

After all these years of learning, playing and watching. IMO, to become the elite "shogun 2" players, if you can control the pace anytime, anywhere, and control the loss of your units. You will enjoy and master the game.

Tips: But i also realize lately, setting it to "Large" or "Ultra" should be easier to manage. If you tend to make mistake, you can maneuvers it immediately without taking heavy loss.
As Sn3z said, you can upgrade armor and morale to endure the fighting ability.

[markeason]

Originally posted by Uranium235:

Hey everyone <33

Im a "veteran" of a few TW titles (Empire, Napoleon, Rome/Rome 2, Attilla, Medieval 2) and enjoy them for the most part.

Shogun 2 is not bad, I like the challenge and realm divide but my issue is I dont like the battles because they go by way too fast and devolve into chaos. The cannons just obliterate entire units, have incredible accuracy & seem to reload immediately. Whenever units engage in melee the battle just devolves into a blob and any formation you mightve had is gone & I will need to spend the rest of the battle zoomed out as far as possible rapidly clicking on a units flag and moving it/attacking etc.

In other TW titles battles had better pacing (in my opinion). What use is it putting all that time and effort into all the units and animations just to sit back zoomed out and not get to see and feel any of it?
Every other TW I have played is really good in that regard, youll always have time to get a closer look at exactly whats going on. Of course you need to zoom out to get a larger picture of the situation, but I mean once you know you can get closer to certain areas of the field and watch.

Anyone know what I mean? It really feels like these battles go by in a couple minutes.
Im not saying I have any trouble winning battles, I dont, its just that theyre not interesting to me at all.

Maybe there are mods that reduce casualties or somehow slow the pace of battles a little bit?

I share your frustration with the battles.

9 times in 10 a field battle will culminate in a 60 second click-fest challenge of hand-eye co-ordination, punctuated by frequent pausing to locate a unit. For me, this destroys any immersion in the battle and has nothing to do with tactics.

My biggest beef with the battles is that there is no combat or movement modifier for fatigued infantry (ranged or melee). I don't know why this was omitted unless it proved too hard to programme the AI to deploy with multiple lines and cycle units to the rear to recover fatigue.

I have been experimenting with a mod to introduce fatigue penalties to combat and movement, but the AI insists on running everywhere and throwing its exhausted units into melee. It only really works if the AI is on the defensive - except the AI yari ashigaru units always stand in yari wall formation incurring fatigue. So, by the time you have marched across the map to engage them, they are exhausted and rout at the first volley.

I have yet to try slowing down battles by changing unit speed, because the knock on effects to rate of fire, rate of inflicting melee casualties, rate of fatigue and so on may need to change. (Potentially more work than I can be bothered to think about).

I also dislike the annihilation of armies each battle. Casualty levels are absurdly high. If the number of battles necessary in a campaign was reduced to a more sensible level, and each battle was played at a slower pace, I believe the result would be a superior game.

In conjunction with a reduction in casualties in the battle, the number of men that can be recruited / replenished should be tied to province population rather than a bottomless pit of men.

I don't find winning the battles particularly hard but, with the occasional exception, I don't find fighting them enjoyable.

As a result I use campaign strategy to get myself into positions in which I can auto-resolve all but the very early campaign battles and the (very) occasional battle that offers something novel.

I really like Shogun 2 but, for me, the battles are the weakest element of the game - which is a great pity as the diversity of units, the unit upgrade building options and the General skill path options provide opportunity for great variety. Which is pointless when the battle descends into a blob so often.

[Malkiah]

Originally posted by markeason:

My biggest beef with the battles is that there is no combat or movement modifier for fatigued infantry (ranged or melee). I don't know why this was omitted unless it proved too hard to programme the AI to deploy with multiple lines and cycle units to the rear to recover fatigue.

There is a fatigue fix mod on my mod collection made by Frenky. With that mod infantry is finally affected by fatigue as it should with combat debuffs.

[Sn3z]

If your playing mainly on ashigaru based army's(the temptation is high) I wouldn't generally take a fight on the field with this kind of 1D army ,ambushing is something to explore but it will generally end up being awful and if you don't have the rep the campaign it can snowball badly from that even if you crawl out of the battle winning, unless your going to abuse piece mealing when attacking the units the AI can end up doing(I just on't have the patience), just play defensive on your forts.

If you want great flexibility with armies fast(able to adapt seamlessly to attacking,defense and seige's), I would try to get samurai units out asap(much better armored) literally start recruiting them(moderation) like right from the start along with ashigaru, yari samurai are really excellent units(able to adapt) and light cavalry is a must, great at body guarding your general, bow samurai will ensure you win vs bow ashigaru even if they have more units than you, you be able to commit to shootouts in attacking scenario's, this will give you a big advantage over predominately ashigaru armies,. Of course doing this means cutting your cloth as far as building construction is concerned Its a slow start.

Next try to recruit units at rank that will help with melee defense, I know it obnoxious but well worth it.

[Malkiah]

Originally posted by Sn3z:

If your playing mainly on ashigaru based army's(the temptation is high) I wouldn't generally take a fight on the field with this kind of 1D army ,ambushing is something to explore but it will generally end up being awful and if you don't have the rep the campaign it can snowball badly from that even if you crawl out of the battle winning, unless your going to abuse piece mealing when attacking the units the AI can end up doing(I just on't have the patience), just play defensive on your forts.

If you want great flexibility with armies fast(able to adapt seamlessly to attacking,defense and seige's), I would try to get samurai units out asap(much better armored) literally start recruiting them(moderation) like right from the start along with ashigaru, yari samurai are really excellent units(able to adapt) and light cavalry is a must, great at body guarding your general, bow samurai will ensure you win vs bow ashigaru even if they have more units than you, you be able to commit to shootouts in attacking scenario's, this will give you a big advantage over predominately ashigaru armies,. Of course doing this means cutting your cloth as far as building construction is concerned Its a slow start.

Next try to recruit units at rank that will help with melee defense, I know it obnoxious but well worth it.

Outside of some clans that don't have a land battle superiority, I would argue that rushing your clan specific units as fast as possible since they are cheaper and get the job done due to their higher stats. Like if you play date, No-dachi, bow samurai and yari ashigaru is your bread and butter. You don't need anything else, you could argue light cavalry is somewhat helpful at killing routing units but you can use your generals for that as well. I honestly don't see a point in buying them early on since they are so expensive and totally useless against bow samurai and yari ashigaru.

[Sn3z]

Originally posted by Raz:

Originally posted by Sn3z:

If your playing mainly on ashigaru based army's(the temptation is high) I wouldn't generally take a fight on the field with this kind of 1D army ,ambushing is something to explore but it will generally end up being awful and if you don't have the rep the campaign it can snowball badly from that even if you crawl out of the battle winning, unless your going to abuse piece mealing when attacking the units the AI can end up doing(I just on't have the patience), just play defensive on your forts.

If you want great flexibility with armies fast(able to adapt seamlessly to attacking,defense and seige's), I would try to get samurai units out asap(much better armored) literally start recruiting them(moderation) like right from the start along with ashigaru, yari samurai are really excellent units(able to adapt) and light cavalry is a must, great at body guarding your general, bow samurai will ensure you win vs bow ashigaru even if they have more units than you, you be able to commit to shootouts in attacking scenario's, this will give you a big advantage over predominately ashigaru armies,. Of course doing this means cutting your cloth as far as building construction is concerned Its a slow start.

Next try to recruit units at rank that will help with melee defense, I know it obnoxious but well worth it.

Outside of some clans that don't have a land battle superiority, I would argue that rushing your clan specific units as fast as possible since they are cheaper and get the job done due to their higher stats. Like if you play date, No-dachi, bow samurai and yari ashigaru is your bread and butter. You don't need anything else, you could argue light cavalry is somewhat helpful at killing routing units but you can use your generals for that as well. I honestly don't see a point in buying them early on since they are so expensive and totally useless against bow samurai and yari ashigaru.

They give you mobility and tempo, where is the AI has none the battle is advantageous, 2 units in a early game army(one for either flank) thats it, lets say you also got one or even two more generals in the army, means you use general+ light cavalry combo on both flanks with main general in the center, also generals have inspire to use on them if they manage to get to a AI generals unit and rally to get them out of fight without breaking. Upkeep costs are very reasonable and you can rout backs of ashigaru, more units means its easier to hit more backs-less causalities technically if you manage to get to really good levels being able to determine if AI units will rout with charges(I suppose charge bonus as a stat line is well worth buffing in this scenario). I will say though its all about mirco but if you want to go into land battles having an advantage you need to take it in army composition at least.

Rushing say naginanta/no-dachi for specialized clans would be a stretch,even if clans specialize I think it would be too much personally bu its also the fact your skipping over yari and maybe katana's. Yari's in particular are great units for any faction at a rank 0 paying full price, great investment early game.

You can build a stables recruit the units and then demolish.

**Also light cavalry can peel off units for rear charges, although its adding more micro to the battle, means free routs, generally if your in a shootout(which you need bow samurai) you can concentrate just micro'ing one or both flanks and put yari wall down turn skirmish on bow samurai, in case the AI decides to rush you.

[BastardSword]

If you're talking about cannons being effective you must be talking about FOTS, because cannons in Shogun 2 are garbage. But the AI very very rarely uses cannons in FOTS so I don't know what the problem is.

Battles in Shogun 2 and FOTS are very fast paced and tend to not last very long because one side will rout really quickly. You'll get used to it with practice. I never liked Medieval 2 because I felt like the battles were just giant mosh pits that never ended. Shogun 2 battles can end really abruptly but my favorite thing about the game is that everything that happens makes sense.

[Rocket Witch]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=850343824

[bkkm12]

To extend what i said to you, i was looking up some shogun 2 historical quotes and find this.

"On both difficult and easy terrain, you must know the 'tenable' and 'fatal' ground. Occupy tenable ground and attack on fatal ground."
- Sun Bin

He is a very good and well known chinese military strategist. I personally didn't know Sun Bin have said this before. That's why I always said I learn the hard way.

[markeason]

Originally posted by Raz:

Originally posted by markeason:

My biggest beef with the battles is that there is no combat or movement modifier for fatigued infantry (ranged or melee). I don't know why this was omitted unless it proved too hard to programme the AI to deploy with multiple lines and cycle units to the rear to recover fatigue.

There is a fatigue fix mod on my mod collection made by Frenky. With that mod infantry is finally affected by fatigue as it should with combat debuffs.

Unfortunately it doesn't work as an effective mod. Yes, it penalises infantry movement and combat and, for PvP it would be OK. But because the AI takes no consideration of fatigue in its actions, the mod simply makes the AI easier to beat.

As a player, I know to manage the fatigue of my units. The AI is clueless in this regard, runs its units everywhere, then tries to initiate combat with its tired units (now moving more slowly and fighting less effectively) against my fresh units. There will be only one outcome.

[Sn3z]

Maybe the AI should get a difficulty bonus to fatigue not depreciating so quickly. There could perhaps be a general skill as well to effect army which would be a fairer way of doing this, not so handy for the player.

The skill tree's are already extremely bloated though and could be tidied up, I would be interested in how the AI actually navigates skill tree's in shogun 2.

[Malkiah]

Originally posted by markeason:

Originally posted by Raz:

There is a fatigue fix mod on my mod collection made by Frenky. With that mod infantry is finally affected by fatigue as it should with combat debuffs.

Unfortunately it doesn't work as an effective mod. Yes, it penalises infantry movement and combat and, for PvP it would be OK. But because the AI takes no consideration of fatigue in its actions, the mod simply makes the AI easier to beat.

As a player, I know to manage the fatigue of my units. The AI is clueless in this regard, runs its units everywhere, then tries to initiate combat with its tired units (now moving more slowly and fighting less effectively) against my fresh units. There will be only one outcome.

Without that mod, the only difference between fresh infantry and exhausted infantry is a morale penalty, so unless you are using ashigaru, fatigue doesn't really matter. With that mod you actually get punished for getting fatigued because without that mod I just ran everywhere and killed everyone with no penalty since I mostly use samurai tbh.
Edit: Also with that mod you can no longer just fight hordes of enemy units endlessly in castles since your units actually get worse with exhaustion. So it makes the game harder, not easier.

In regards to rushing no-dachi or naginata, it is tottally possible since I did it multiple times on legendary campaigns. Yari samurai are only good against asigaru and cavalry, anything else like katana cavalry or no-dachi it just dies. Katana samurai is kinda like the bread and butter in the first 15 turns but after that you can go to either naginata or no-dachi.

[markeason]

Originally posted by Sn3z:

Maybe the AI should get a difficulty bonus to fatigue not depreciating so quickly. There could perhaps be a general skill as well to effect army which would be a fairer way of doing this, not so handy for the player.

The skill tree's are already extremely bloated though and could be tidied up, I would be interested in how the AI actually navigates skill tree's in shogun 2.

I'm not sure about Generals' skills but, for the Tech tree the clans have different priorities for research. These are pursued irrespective of how the campaign pans out around them.

I imagine that the General skill and other skills will also be prioritised dependent on clan - though I have not looked into it.

One way of helping the AI is to reduce the contribution of movement (running / charging / walking etc) to fatigue and increasing the contribution of combat. This works reasonably well, but is hard to find the right balance.

My aim is for a mod that adds to the game, without making the AI even easier to defeat.