Does yari wall low key make the Shogun 2 campaign worse?

[Aaron]

I'm not saying this to be inflammatory, I've still enjoy the occasional yari wall.

This thought occured to me when I was considering an idea for a campaign balance mod. I realized that yari walls aren't just OP, they're a flawed nigh unfixable part of the game.

Here's a few reasons why:

-the ai don't (effectively) use it

-the ai doesn't know how to deal with it. It just charges you head-on

-the wall encourages and rewards a passive, uninteresting playstyle

-you practically have to babysit them. They require a lot of extra micro that isn't particularly fun. They can get stuck on 1 or 2 men while in yari wall so you'll have to hold their hand the entire time. Keep in mind these will still be your best units despite that.

-yari wall is pretty buggy sometimes, combine that with the point above and it can get frusterating.

-Yari wall is a force multiplier. Meaning all those buffs balanced for regular units, become silly strong on yari wall units making it really difficult to balance those buffs.

I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing out something I don't really see discussed. Sure, yari wall OP and all but is that really the worst part? To me, in a game like this, combat built around fast encounters, risky plays, aggression and devistating charges, yari wall almost feels like a bad shoehorn.

Microing it also seems gimmicky as all hell when you think about it, especially since the unit goes from useless to hero based on it. Would men really need an order to get in spearwall before an engagement if they knew they'd get slaughtered if they didn't? What's the point of even charging with a unit who has 1 charge bonus? Why would I ever want to charge or let myself get charged?

What's strange is I use to love this mechanic. I saw it as a reward for skill. Over time I've realize it's a pretty cheesy ability that is at odds with other parts of the game and doesn't really add much besides micro.

In my future hypothetical campaign mod first goal would involve creating yari ashigaru that no longer had or needed yari wall.

[Sn3z]

Yes it does, upon revisiting this game, I have really seen its just so shallow, its all about abusing the AI on harder difficulties to obtain victorys you have no business getting, you can't engage the AI properly in a pitched battle unless you want to get rekt in the process and instead its about trying to get the AI to piecemeal units in order to obtain an advantage.

The building slots limitations are horrible next the the building bloat, the tech tree's I mean could be made much much better. The starting eco vs the cost of buildings and infrastructure is just too much(game is quite tough at the start but once you have the income it gets so easy polar opposite).

The samurai aspect is kind of separate from the ashigaru side, the samuari part of the roster including monks has a somewhat decent rock papar scissor thing going on but its the ashigaru which ruins that, really I think CA should made perhaps ashigaru which can't spearwall at the start maybe add tech later...

[Imhotep]

Does the AI never use Yari Wall?

I thought I saw them using it once, but I might have been mistaken.

I might stop using it, as a house rule. I already don't use Loose Formation for missile units, since I've never seen the AI use it. The AI also don't use Skirmish for missile units, but I always use that since it's not really an ability, but rather a micro-management prevention feature.

I think I've seen the AI use other abilities like Rapid Advance for Yari Samurai, and morale-reducing ones.

[BastardSword]

I do find it pretty cheap, and I do find it annoying that Total War games always seem to have AI that is good in some areas but completely braindead in others. CA keeps giving armies options like kneel fire in FOTS or spear wall that the AI just won't ever use properly. Maybe 5% of the time the AI will use kneel fire and the rest of the time just walk into a wall of slaughter. The AI will use spearwall but in really dumb ways, like when moving troops forward but not when they are under attack.

That said, spear wall also kinda balances the game out a lot on hard. If I didn't use spearwall and didn't rely on cheap ashigaru armies, there's no way I could win on Hard with Uesugi, Ikko Ikki and other tough clans. The AI starts spamming full stacks of yari samurai VERY early on in the campaign, and spear wall is a great way to counter this.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Imhotep:

Does the AI never use Yari Wall?

I thought I saw them using it once, but I might have been mistaken.

You're not mistaken: the AI uses yari wall.

If anything, an exploit potentisl is not in that AI doesn't use yari wall; it's that they will keep their guys in it for longer than needed, unnecessarily tiring their troops, which allows you to attack them while they're "Winded" or even "Tired."

[Tocki]

the problem is that the AI cant deal with it. Else i think its pretty balanced.
In MP i see a few ppl trying this unskilled yari ashigaru + yari wall trick, but they fail.
Fake charge, force him to activate yari wall, shoot into it with range, repeat.
High armor and defence units are a good counter, for example skilled katana sams break them apart, if they get a good charge. Nag sams can deal with them too.

to conclude:
the unit itself isnt really OP with yari wall, its just the AI is too dumb to deal with it.

[markeason]

I agree with the OP. My principal problems with yari wall and micro-management are:

When charging cavalry, even though I have waited until the last nano-second before ordering the wall, is able to execute a manoeuvre like an F1 car (that's like an Indy car, but better !), coming out of the slipstream, dart around the wall in the space of a pixel and nail my general and/or archers.

When an enemy unit is in the slightest contact with one of the men or, if the unit has been pulled out of melee but one of the men has remained in melee, no matter my exhortations, the unit will not form yari wall. Why not FFS:
Doug's not here.
Really? Doug's not here you say. My, my, that'll never do. No, no. Can't possibly form yari wall without Doug.
Terrible news Sir. Doug's been killed.
Good Lord, that is terrible news. I suppose we'll have to form yari wall without him.

I would like the whole mechanic to be taken away from the player and be automated (like fire at will), such that, if the unit is approached by an enemy, it makes a check against its experience level, with mods for fatigue level, whether in command radius of general and penalties for being charged by specific, feared unit types. If it passes it forms yari wall, if it fails it doesn't. This would put the AI and player on a more even footing.

Equally, a unit charging a yari-ashigaru unit, on seeing it form yari-wall, should make a similar check against experience level adjusted for other factors to determine whether it pulls up or continues to charge into the wall. Cavalry might be allowed to veer away from the target unit, but should then be pulled back. No-way in mid-charge could they alter direction in the way they do to swerve around the unit.

I have stated previously that I find battles the least enjoyable aspect of the game. The need for high speed micromanagement of units is one of the main reasons. As an armchair general, I want to deploy my force, issue orders to units, set the game in motion and sit back and enjoy the spectacle, issuing minimal subsequent orders to withdraw blown units, or for reserves to engage as required.

[Red Spot]

The AI can not deal with full stacks of samurai, or mounted ranged units, or ......
It is pretty much the point of debate in any TW game, that they can not make the AI do the same as the human can. It allows you to play what ever way you like.
Wanna savescum until that agent does succeed in that 10% chance action? Go for it.
Wanna yari-wall the campaign? Your choice.

It is easy enough to create a minor mod that removed the yari-wall. See if that makes for a more enjoyable game?

[Liberty Shingen]

Originally posted by markeason:

I agree with the OP. My principal problems with yari wall and micro-management are:

I have stated previously that I find battles the least enjoyable aspect of the game. The need for high speed micromanagement of units is one of the main reasons. As an armchair general, I want to deploy my force, issue orders to units, set the game in motion and sit back and enjoy the spectacle, issuing minimal subsequent orders to withdraw blown units, or for reserves to engage as required.

then obviously shogun 2 is not for you

you (might) do well in:
1. civilizations
2. crusader kings
3. xcom

[markeason]

Originally posted by Liberty Shingen:

Originally posted by markeason:

I agree with the OP. My principal problems with yari wall and micro-management are:

I have stated previously that I find battles the least enjoyable aspect of the game. The need for high speed micromanagement of units is one of the main reasons. As an armchair general, I want to deploy my force, issue orders to units, set the game in motion and sit back and enjoy the spectacle, issuing minimal subsequent orders to withdraw blown units, or for reserves to engage as required.

then obviously shogun 2 is not for you

you (might) do well in:
1. civilizations
2. crusader kings
3. xcom

Thank you for taking the trouble to make those recommendations. However, the 4,000 hours I have invested in Total War Games, of which near 1,900 is in Shogun 2, suggests that perhaps it is the game for me.

Different people enjoy different aspects of the game. Some, probably the majority, enjoy the battles and bemoan aspects of the campaign. I enjoy the campaign and accept the battles are a necessary part of that.

If my preference was for battles I would probably not bother with the campaign and would be seeking out human opponents for battles for a better challenge. But it's not.

Ascetically the battles are superb - and replays can be fun to watch. But playing them is a chore. I would far rather fewer battles (in the campaign) and that they were slower paced, took longer to resolve.

My strategy in campaigns involves getting to a position whereby I can auto-resolve the vast majority of battles. This has made the Ikko Ikki campaign a nightmare as lack of funds and limited access to quality units means I have had to fight countless battles. A feature that would help would be the return of the Demand surrender, so that you don't have to waste time fighting with your 20 stack army against a single samurai retainer because you want (need) to take a province with the fort intact.

[Liberty Shingen]

Originally posted by markeason:

Originally posted by Liberty Shingen:

then obviously shogun 2 is not for you

you (might) do well in:
1. civilizations
2. crusader kings
3. xcom

Thank you for taking the trouble to make those recommendations. However, the 4,000 hours I have invested in Total War Games, of which near 1,900 is in Shogun 2, suggests that perhaps it is the game for me.

Different people enjoy different aspects of the game. Some, probably the majority, enjoy the battles and bemoan aspects of the campaign. I enjoy the campaign and accept the battles are a necessary part of that.

If my preference was for battles I would probably not bother with the campaign and would be seeking out human opponents for battles for a better challenge. But it's not.

Ascetically the battles are superb - and replays can be fun to watch. But playing them is a chore. I would far rather fewer battles (in the campaign) and that they were slower paced, took longer to resolve.

My strategy in campaigns involves getting to a position whereby I can auto-resolve the vast majority of battles. This has made the Ikko Ikki campaign a nightmare as lack of funds and limited access to quality units means I have had to fight countless battles. A feature that would help would be the return of the Demand surrender, so that you don't have to waste time fighting with your 20 stack army against a single samurai retainer because you want (need) to take a province with the fort intact.

ok, i shall respect your comments.

also demand surrender does not automatically mean the retainer will give up, and this is especially the case in sengoku era, otherwise shogun 2 will lose some bit of its realism

the most important part of a real time strategy shogun 2, is your battle unit control, quick understanding, quick reaction, perception, and the hardest part only possible again human play - forcing them to make a mistake

coming back to your ikko clan, it is a nightmare because the more you have to limit your losses in the initial battles to expand the base at first, and this is only possible if you micro the battle in the finest detail

[Donut Steel]

Many of the points being made here concern the AI rather than the ability itself, or the way some players use their units.

I'm confused that anyone would consider Yari-Wall as something that causes a net increase in micro-management, or that it has balance issues when combined with other things. There isn't a buff in the game that won't see a Yari-Wall slaughtered by missiles faster than anything else.

I don't regard Shogun 2 as being about fast-pacing, risks, aggression and devastating charges. These are things I associate with modern Total War, which I dislike. Shogun 2 is the last 'old' Total War which did not close-off so many of my preferred tactics, which focus on force-preservation over force-projection. Shogun 2 allows for more variety of tactics than the newer games do, and will probably be the only one I am still playing in ten years because of that.

I hardly issue orders to a Yari Ashigaru after setting a Wall up, unless it's to put them back in regular formation and get them to move somewhere. They are an anticipatory static defence unit meant to deter or punish frontal attacks, in contrast to Yari Samurai who run around with a focus on reactionary defence. You're not meant to use Yari-Wall at the last second, but set it up with the intent to deter frontal attacks to begin with, just as Matchlock Ashigaru will not instantly fire when you change their position. With those you need them in position to begin with, in anticipation, especially if using fire-by-rank because that won't start firing until every enabled troop is ready to.

[BastardSword]

It does require a bit more micromanagement because you can't just select all your melee units and click on one enemy unit and win the battle like you can with a big samurai army. However all you need to do is just order your spear wall ashigaru to walk forward into and over and past the enemy. Basically just put them in spear wall, then order them to walk forward until they are just behind the enemy's backs. Then sit back and just watch your yari ashigaru turn the enemy into mincemeat. If you have any morale issues doing this, whittle down the enemy bows more first, and use a small band of held-back samurai (I like using 3 katana samurai) to charge into the enemy and help out any of your yari ashigaru that are starting to lose morale.

[markeason]

Originally posted by BastardSword:

It does require a bit more micromanagement because you can't just select all your melee units and click on one enemy unit and win the battle like you can with a big samurai army. However all you need to do is just order your spear wall ashigaru to walk forward into and over and past the enemy. Basically just put them in spear wall, then order them to walk forward until they are just behind the enemy's backs. Then sit back and just watch your yari ashigaru turn the enemy into mincemeat. If you have any morale issues doing this, whittle down the enemy bows more first, and use a small band of held-back samurai (I like using 3 katana samurai) to charge into the enemy and help out any of your yari ashigaru that are starting to lose morale.

Sound advice, but by the time I have an army like you describe, I am using campaign strategy to ensure I have the capability present that allows me to auto-resolve the battle that you describe.

The battles I fight (Ikko Ikki clan aside) tend to be those early game in which I have a couple of bow ash and 4 yari ash, up against a full, or near full, stack. I'm not sure that putting my yari ash in spear wall and marching them up to the enemy would work in this situation - but it might be fun to try :)

[ksay]

yeah it's kinda op at the start but you can totally ditch them as soon as you have access to better units
unless you want to micro your yari walls and die from boredom for the rest of the campaign
shock value of the unit >>>> yari wall in 90% of the situations
for example even lowtier Ikko Ikki Sword Ashigaru are by far better choice than yari ashigaru
imo ofc but that's my conclusion after 380hours

[Guts]

Yari is only effective at the earlier stages of the game. during the mid-game, you'll face hordes of samurai/cannons etc. which will break through those walls in seconds.
I only use yari wall to protect my archers from the enemy cavarly and to slow down the enemy samurai, giving my archers/riflemen a chance to fire an extra volley or two.