I think I lost to the Honma

[Very serious person]

I got humilliated by the smallest and weakest faction in the map, I've already triggered realm divide have all the required provinces and my two most powerful armies are three turns away from Kyoto. I've checked what they have and I don't think their Yari Sam and Bow Sam will be able to stop me from taking it, however, a naval invasion from the Honma, who currently only own a small island just landed in Tsukushi, which is my most profitable province and is right beside my two other most profitable provinces. All my armies are far from there and I don't know how to stop the inevitable doom that will ensue once they take those provinces. I'll go bankrupt unless I start disbanding armies, but I am in the middle of Realm Divide and I fear if I do that I won't be able to stand to the other clans who are all at war with me.

I posted this because I thought it was funny, imagine this actually happened, a clan so powerful that all other clans have banded against it and they're still getting steamrolled yet a small insignificant clan no one has paid attention to managed to be downfall of my clan.

Also, I'm going to restart the campaign if I don't manage to save this and I'd like some advice not to experience this again,

[Pharaoh]

i uh....just....
erm good luck

i for one welcome our island overlords

[Eddie G]

The Honma are notorious for doing exactly that, they are a naval clan, for obvious reasons. And all they do is look for sweet spots to drop an amphibious landing. They will do it repeatedly if you don't wipe them out. After realm divide, if they are still around, they know exactly where to hit you, because all the other clans are allied against you, so they have line of sight on you that any other clan has.

[Eonfighter]

Solution: Wipe out the Honma before triggering realm divide.
In my limited experience that seems to be like a good idea. More generally, try to limit the directions enemies can attack you (though this is obvious).

[Eddie G]

They will do it at any point, not just after realm divide, if you are at war with them.

[markeason]

• Park a bow kobaya by each of the possible landing spots.
  
  
• Keep a small, mobile, defensive reserve army on Kyushu, located centrally and able to move to any province in a couple of turns. It doesn't need to be large or high quality, but good enough in conjunction with additional units recruited in one turn + the castle garrison, to defeat a full stack.
  
  
• Be willing to give up a province and demolish the buildings in there, let them occupy the castle, then besiege them. You can recruit locally and increase your force, they cannot and they will be destroyed if you assault and they lose. Even if they sally out and defeat your besieging force, they will get a bloody nose, you will be recruiting, they will not.
  
  
• If you hold Kyushu you should be in control of all of the trade nodes around it. Your economy should be throwing out more koku than you can spend. Losing those provinces should not bankrupt you, unless your military is far larger than you can support / need. Keep your army/navy upkeep costs within your tax revenue. That way trade income provides a good buffer. If you hold those trade nodes, have optimally promoted metsuke (overseeing towns) in your five highest wealth provinces, you could have 100 - 200,000 koku in the bank by the time Realm Divide triggers. There is no way you should be facing bankruptcy.
  
  
• The Honma are a pain like this as are the Chosakabe and others, given half a chance. The best way to deal with them is while they are still on open water. The Chosakabe are especially easy as they have the decency to sail their full stacks on individual trade ships - making them the easiest kills in the game.

Don't need to do all of the above, but any of them will help

[Telvido_cat]

As above said Honma is just a symptom here. The real problem is leaving yourself economically fragile. It doesn't have to be like this even on legendary starting on Kyushu a big war chest is easy and will make you resilient.

[eyecarrot19]

go rampage on sacking the provinces, that's how you won't go bankrupt and even get money for more units/upgrades

[BastardSword]

Just build a new top quality army in Satsuma and rush up and defeat them.

[Zero SKill]

Build a new army in Satsuma/Higo/Bungo and Let this army Deal whit the Honma Army
I have experience whit these little piece of s*** clan. So i can give you 3 advices.
-Advice 1 Having a Strong fleet mear Sado is important so you are able to see their moves(Medium,Heavy Bunes,Bow Kobaya/Nanban Trade Ship, *Imperial battle ship Mod unit*) . And the best you can spy out their island.
-Advice 2 Aslong the Honma are just in Sado they are not able to build a strong army because of Koku. So mostly their army is build of Ashigaru Units and Several Generals so you need a army of up to 1800 Samurais to defeat them whit low losses.
-Advice 3 Before Real Divide is getting triggered, You need to Wipe them out or Vassals them!
If you want to wipe them out have a fleet near Sado, Build a army of Samurais or Ashigarus (if they have no or a little army on Their Castle, Start a invasion by destroy their fleets and Invasion them
If you want to Vassalize them you have 2 ways!
-Way 1 Kill their Daymio and his Army (Mostly placed on some weak bow ships before an Invasion
-Way 2 Conquer Sado (Seriously dont to that! Because sado is a potential 6000+ Koku province so you are able to get a lot Koku!)
But you lost already to them
You cant win anymore
You can only delay a game over!
Your suck
Gane over and may your clan Rest in Peace and May the Honma Rise again

[markeason]

There is no need to conquer Sado before Realm divide - unless you are coming from Date country and it is convenient.

If there is no army there, a couple of bow ashigaru and 4 yari ashigaru is plenty to take the island. If the army is there, don't attack them, lure them off the island.

To do this, when you have captured the Uesugi starting province (Echigo?), leave Nagaoka castle empty, hiding your defensive army in the woods nearby. Your force for taking Sado should be concealed in the woods by the province farmland (near the harbour); and leave a boat in the harbour.

The Honma will not resist the temptation to invade for long, and will deposit their entire army on the beach to the south-west of your castle.

At this point, move your defensive force back into the castle and your offensive force onto the boat, sail to Sado and invade the undefended province.

If you have some boats in the area you can take out their fleet first for some extra experience. Now, if the Honma don't have any other provinces, when you take Sado, their army in Echigo will be eliminated without having to do battle. At worst you will have a simple defensive siege battle to win in Nagaoka castle.

They are not a strong force. They are a nuisance rather than a problem.

[Very serious person]

Many of you say that starting in Kyushu should be a blessing for my income but I never get to hold onto the trade nodes I get. I take advantage of the three I manage to get in the early game but I can't spare fleets to protect them. The AI has a lot of small fleets moving up and down being a nuissance with trade raiding, port blockading or invasions. I get less fleets but more packed and powerful, I have tried splitting them to be in more than a place at a time like protecting my nodes at the same time I get rid of raiders but It leads to bad auto resolve chances and I really don't understand the naval combat and sometimes it just pisses me off seing AI trade ships beating my bow kobayas or stuff like that.

[Sn3z]

Originally posted by Very serious person:

Many of you say that starting in Kyushu should be a blessing for my income but I never get to hold onto the trade nodes I get. I take advantage of the three I manage to get in the early game but I can't spare fleets to protect them. The AI has a lot of small fleets moving up and down being a nuissance with trade raiding, port blockading or invasions. I get less fleets but more packed and powerful, I have tried splitting them to be in more than a place at a time like protecting my nodes at the same time I get rid of raiders but It leads to bad auto resolve chances and I really don't understand the naval combat and sometimes it just pisses me off seing AI trade ships beating my bow kobayas or stuff like that.

I don't think going trade early game is really that worth it, conquering Kyushu then investing heavily into ships recruiting them at rank 3 I think is a better way well its much safer and it just so happens to roughly coincide with a mid game stagnating economy, where things are getting so expensive to upgrade.

BTW Honma are a really big pain in my Ikko Ikki I can't commit to destroy them(can't set aside the army too many enemies fleets sailing around aswell) and they constantly raiding my settlements...

[Eddie G]

Originally posted by Very serious person:

Many of you say that starting in Kyushu should be a blessing for my income but I never get to hold onto the trade nodes I get. I take advantage of the three I manage to get in the early game but I can't spare fleets to protect them. The AI has a lot of small fleets moving up and down being a nuissance with trade raiding, port blockading or invasions. I get less fleets but more packed and powerful, I have tried splitting them to be in more than a place at a time like protecting my nodes at the same time I get rid of raiders but It leads to bad auto resolve chances and I really don't understand the naval combat and sometimes it just pisses me off seing AI trade ships beating my bow kobayas or stuff like that.

Kyushu has several very fertile farms in the north. (Shoni territory) That and horses in the Sagara territory, as well as a very fertile farm. This is why Kyushu is a gold mine, this is aside from easy access to most of the trade nodes. Horses will get you whatever you want if you offer a trade agreement, including an alliance.

[BastardSword]

Originally posted by Very serious person:

Many of you say that starting in Kyushu should be a blessing for my income but I never get to hold onto the trade nodes I get. I take advantage of the three I manage to get in the early game but I can't spare fleets to protect them. The AI has a lot of small fleets moving up and down being a nuissance with trade raiding, port blockading or invasions. I get less fleets but more packed and powerful, I have tried splitting them to be in more than a place at a time like protecting my nodes at the same time I get rid of raiders but It leads to bad auto resolve chances and I really don't understand the naval combat and sometimes it just pisses me off seing AI trade ships beating my bow kobayas or stuff like that.

Don't bother with the trade nodes if they are giving you grief. Unless I am Christian and can spam Euro trade ships, I never bother with them anymore. In order to properly defend them you have to spend so much on medium bune spam that you end up losing most of the profits from the trade nodes. And the AI will just keep attacking them over and over again until all your ships are goneburgers. If you rely too much on trade for your economy, the AI knows this and will just cut off all your trade by attacking trade routes and blockading your ports. Instead focus on building farms and markets.

For me the trade nodes only exist to give you access to VERY late game buildings like the final archery dojo or final yari dojo, and you really don't need to build them. By the time you research them you almost definitely won't have access to silk or cotton.

[markeason]

Originally posted by Very serious person:

Many of you say that starting in Kyushu should be a blessing for my income but I never get to hold onto the trade nodes I get. I take advantage of the three I manage to get in the early game but I can't spare fleets to protect them. The AI has a lot of small fleets moving up and down being a nuissance with trade raiding, port blockading or invasions. I get less fleets but more packed and powerful, I have tried splitting them to be in more than a place at a time like protecting my nodes at the same time I get rid of raiders but It leads to bad auto resolve chances and I really don't understand the naval combat and sometimes it just pisses me off seing AI trade ships beating my bow kobayas or stuff like that.

I hear what you're saying - I used to suffer the exact problems you describe.

Then one day I got to understand the naval battles and everything got a lot easier.

Things to know about naval battles'

• The auto-resolve is dreadful. Even if you send the black ship against a trade ship, it will likely get a bruising on auto-resolve (#hyperbole). Never use auto-resolve for naval battles.
  
  
• The bow kobaya is the only boat you need to recruit (research fire arrows tech as priority). All captured vessels are disbanded (shame there is no prize money). You don't need bunes or any other vessel and captured bow kobayas are not worth the upkeep cost of travelling to port and repairing to emerge at level 0, if you can recruit a new one at level 3 - 5 from a province with a pirate lair or its upgrade.
  
  
• With fire arrow tech, a single bow kobaya (and a lot of patience), can take down a full stack of medium bunes.
  
  
• Always try to be on the offensive with your navy. If you are the attacker, you get to select the weather. You don't want fog, you don't want rain.
  
  
• If your navy is attacked, the AI often chooses rain or fog. Don't retreat before the battle, accept the battle and, if it is bad weather, deploy your navy near the edge and withdraw. This may get you out of range of them pursuing you and, even if it doesn't, the weather may be better.
  
  
• Know and understand your enemy's forces and how they behave. For example:
  
  Sengoku bune - With wind, it travels faster than bow kobaya, will catch and board your vessel. Do not give them the wind. If (when) one catches one of your boats and starts boarding, it cannot fire. Target it with all your vessels. You may not prevent the capture of your vessel (you will get it back when the battle is won) but that sengoku bune will not trouble you further.
  
  Medium / Heavy bune - These are floating tinderboxes. They should be no concern to you whatsoever. If hit with fire arrows from ~5 bow kobayas in quick succession the boat will be on fire and if not from that volley, certainly the next shot, will be enough to trigger their surrender If you don't have that many bow kobayas in your fleet, then turn tail and row away from the enemy fleet, with your vessels line abreast. They will pursue you strung out with only one vessel at a time entering your range. Keep travelling away from them, slowing to allow them to enter the firing zone, fire, then accelerate away before they fire back. It takes time and patience, but experience is gained which increases rate of fire and accuracy. It can be done with a single vessel but takes ages and a lot of concentration. It is best done with about 3 or 4 vessels.
  
  Fire bomb kobaya - These little blighters can ruin your day. Mercifully, I have never seen the AI never bring more than 2 of them. Target them first with everything.
  
  Bow kobaya - The AI is late getting to fire arrows, so early game you will have the advantage over these if you get that tech first. By the time the AI gets fire arrows, your fleets will be at about experience level 7 and shredding everything the AI puts out.
  
  Cannon bune - Cannons are side mounted, approach from the ends, three boats / end and hit it with fire arrows simultaneously. It is gone.
  
  Why use only one vessel type?
  It makes management of your fleet incredibly easy. Depending on your fleet size, put it into control groups of 3 - 4 vessels, line abreast. Right click on the fire arrows button. This way, every time it counts down, it will automatically discharge fire arrows without need for further input. Move and operate each group as a single entity, not individual boats. That way you only need command up to three groups rather than 10 individual vessels.
  
  Offensive Battle
  Send one group to attack the enemy on each of its flanks simultaneously, (if you have enough vessels to do this - if not attack just one flank). You can target the outermost vessel (usually a trade ship) first or, if there is a priority vessel inside that, then ignore the trade ship and go for that. Often the fleet scatters and the rest of the battle is a case of moving around the map taking down the individual boats.
  
  Sometimes you need to cycle in and out (like with cavalry). Row into range, discharge fire arrows, row out of range, await fire arrow capability, repeat.
  
  If the fleet moves to attack your boats, turn tail and row away. Treat the rest as a defensive battle.
  
  Defensive Battle
  Deployment - consider enemy fleet composition, can wind direction be used to string out enemy. Trade ships and sengoku bunes travel faster with the wind - whilst the former are a nuisance and get in the way, the latter are a challenge. How many are there? Are they the biggest threat? Is there a priority to deal with first. Deploy your vessels upwind or downwind accordingly.
  
  If your fleet is up to 5 vessels, deploy it line abreast and have it continually moving away from the enemy which will pursue with one vessel at a time entering the firing zone. You may have to slow from time to time to let medium bunes catch up, or use fast row to get away from sengoku bunes.
  
  [Edit: If you have more than 5 vessels, split the fleet into groups. Use the group with the admiral to lead the enemy fleet around the map, use the other group(s) to attack the pursuing vessels of the enemy's fleet from flanks / rear.]
  
  Targeting
  I leave fire at will on at all times. I usually allow the boats to pick their own target and use movement to dictate which vessels are within range and therefore targeted. The exception to this is when I want to target a specific boat (fire bomb kobaya, boarding vessel, canon bune, specific pursuing vessel etc). In these cases I select the control group (not individual vessels) and right click on the target. I then immediately give a movement order (in the case of defensive battle to stop the boats turning back to fight). They now should know which boat I want them to fire at as it's probably not the trade ship they have been firing at).
  
  Exploits?
  As in land battles, the AI will favour attacking your admiral. Watch the enemy line of vessels turn to face your admiral's vessel. This behaviour can be exploited in the same way as land battles.
  
  I once had a single bow kobaya with 4 or 5 trade ships attacked by a full stack of medium / sengoku bunes with some bow kobayas. I was going to withdraw the trade ships and was preparing for a long (boring) slog of taking down the fleet with my single bow kobaya. Then I had an [italic] 'I wonder if...' [/italic] moment.
  
  I deployed the trade ships line astern, with a vessel length between them (bow to stern). My admiral (the bow kobaya) rowed to greet them. Having got the enemy's attention, my admiral turned and led them toward the trade ships and, upon reaching them, proceeded to row around the row of them with the enemy fleet locked in pursuit, fixated on the admiral, and being peppered (albeit feebly) by the (unmolested) trade ships. They took their toll which, although slow, was quicker than using the kobaya alone. For variety, I would dart the admiral between a gap in the line if an enemy was getting too close, but it wasn't til the enemy was down to 2 vessels that it thought to take on a trade ship, by which time my admiral was level 7 or 8 and was having none of that.
  
  It was akin to a general kiting the enemy around the archer/matchlock lined walls of a castle. Cheesy, but an easy heroic victory nonetheless.
  
  To master the art of naval warfare get a battle between 3 or more bow kobayas and an enemy fleet of any size / composition. Save it and fight it over and over again until you find that you are winning with minimal losses, by which I mean men, not boats. You should rarely lose a boat.
  
  Good luck and good hunting