Tokugawa clan

[fleenots]

the Tokugawa clan is destroyed every time within the first 3 turns. This makes me wander about the balance of this game as in real history they were the ones to become the next shogunate

[Taco]

Tokugawa starts as a vassal & is sandwiched between it's lord & Oda. Oda if you didn't know, is the strongest clan in the game by far, like seriously OP, whilst Tokugawa is kinda weak amongst the playable clans.

They're basically set up for failure in this game, like Hattori.

[fleenots]

Originally posted by Taco:

Tokugawa starts as a vassal & is sandwiched between it's lord & Oda. Oda if you didn't know, is the strongest clan in the game by far, like seriously OP, whilst Tokugawa is kinda weak amongst the playable clans.

They're basically set up for failure in this game, like Hattori.

yeah so not the best balanced game.

[Smoothhoof]

The Tokagawa are a cracking clan to play. Good ninjas and mounted gunners. And their guys look cool. In reality Tokagawa was one of Oda Nobunaga's generals and only became shogun after the power struggle that followed Oda's death. There was another guy in between Hidytori or something, that unified Japan and invaded Korea but he died then it went to Tokagawa.

[fleenots]

It dIdn't went to Tokugawa. He won the shogunate in battle against Toyotomi Hideyoshi's son. I am just saying that is a shame that such an important clan in Japan history, are always wiped out at the very beginning of every playthrough I make. I guess I have to give it a go at playing the Tokugawa myself.

[Smoothhoof]

Yeah, I couldn't remember the guy's name, but my point still stands, the Tokagawa only rose to prominence after the civil war and unification in the power struggle between Oda's successors. It makes sense that they are a minor clan, easily squashed, during the actual civil war.

[Eddie G]

Originally posted by fleenots:

It dIdn't went to Tokugawa. He won the shogunate in battle against Toyotomi Hideyoshi's son. I am just saying that is a shame that such an important clan in Japan history, are always wiped out at the very beginning of every playthrough I make. I guess I have to give it a go at playing the Tokugawa myself.

They are never destroyed at the beginning of a campaign, if you are playing as the Tokugawa. In that case the Oda are the first to go, hehe

They really aren't that hard, you just need to defeat the ODA on turn 2 or 3, when they attack your castle. They put their entire force into that, so when you wipe their army out, the next turn you take Owari and they have no defense. Then it's a waiting game while you build with good income, sometimes the Imagawa will declare war on you, or they will go to war against the Hojo. Sometimes the Hattori will declare war on you, or the Saito or Kitabitake. In any case it opens up the opportunity to claim more provinces while still remaining a vassal. I do not recommend declaring war on the Imagawa, until later on. Just wait and see what happens, and build your infrastructure in the mean time.

[BastardSword]

Yeah it is a bit silly but as people have pointed out it's actually kind of realistic that the Tokugawa clan's land would get wiped out during the free for all civil war then the clan would return after Oda and Hideyoshi had basically ended the civil war.

However the game is pretty unrealistic with the way it treats the clans and you'd think that CA would have given Tokugawa more staying power.

I would say that in about 80% of games, all the major non-player clans except Takeda and Chosokabe always get wiped out. Sometimes they will stay around but usually not.

Shimazu, Mori, Otomo, Tokugawa, Oda: usually get wiped out really early. But I have had games where Mori, Shimazu and Otomo lasted into the end of the game. Sometimes Oda will become very powerful early on but will usually end up wiped out in the mid-game. I don't think I've ever seen Tokugawa last into the end game as an AI clan, though sometimes they reappear after a rebellion but only take one or two provinces after that.

Hojo; usually becomes allies with Takeda and the two of them stomp around central Japan for quite a while, but then clans to Hojo's east or Takeda end up taking them out.

Uesugi and Date: kind of similar to Hojo, they will often become powerful really early but end up wiped out. Date has more staying power and sometimes takes over all of Eastern Japan.

Chosokabe: almost always sits in Shikoku doing nothing which is why they last into the very end of the game. Sometimes they invade western Honshu and take some land.

Ikko Ikki and Hattori: both almost always become very powerful early on in a campaign then end up getting attacked on all sides and wiped out. If you are playing as a clan like Oda or Tokugawa they can be really annoying.

Takeda: almost always last into the end game, and can be the most difficult clan to kill off because they keep producing full stack armies. If I am a clan near them like Oda or Uesugi I try to kill them off ASAP.

[Stevcorp]

The Tokugawa weren't a particularly strong clan. They took control of Japan because they were patient, careful with their alliances and seized opportunities when they became available.

The Japanese actually have a story about it: Oda, Hideyoshi and Tokugawa are sitting in a garden when they all see a nightingale.

Oda says: "If that bird doesn't sing, I'll have it killed".
Hideyoshi says: "If that bird doesn't sing, I'll find a way to make it sing".
Tokugawa says: "If that bird doesn't sing, I'll wait until it does"

[Eddie G]

Originally posted by Stevcorp:

The Tokugawa weren't a particularly strong clan. They took control of Japan because they were patient, careful with their alliances and seized opportunities when they became available.

The Japanese actually have a story about it: Oda, Hideyoshi and Tokugawa are sitting in a garden when they all see a nightingale.

Oda says: "If that bird doesn't sing, I'll have it killed".
Hideyoshi says: "If that bird doesn't sing, I'll find a way to make it sing".
Tokugawa says: "If that bird doesn't sing, I'll wait until it does"

Nicely put. And very true. The game is not unrealistic, expecting the clans to perform historically as the AI, is. It is a game, so the AI uses whatever it has available to frustrate the player, as intended. It is never going to perform within historical bounds, and expecting it to is insanity.