Total War: SHOGUN 2

Total War: SHOGUN 2

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master_dave Nov 20, 2020 @ 3:08pm
AI cheating makes campaign boring.
The AI cheating makes the campaign in this game boring. I'm tired of having superior armies, better tactics and getting my ass kicked. This game is just boring because of the cheating AI.

I'm not losing because of my strategy, I'm not losing because of my units, I'm losing because the AI is cheating pulling full armies out of nowhere. Straight BS, no way to counter it. You kill a full stack with 3 generals and then the AI just magically pops another full stack with 2 more generals.

The music, art and graphics for this game is great. But the cheating AI is just boring.
Last edited by master_dave; Nov 20, 2020 @ 3:10pm
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Showing 46-60 of 182 comments
Originally posted by -EAT3N-:
Originally posted by markeason:
master_dave

A couple of suggestions, use ninjas to scout ahead, a province or two. You will see that the AI has got these full stacks already, they are not magically generated... (

The suggestion is sound, to use ninjas to scout the area ahead. However, i disagree that the AI already had the armies and they weren't "magically generated". My theory is that the game "cheats" and gives the AI armies sometimes and the player doesn't know the difference because they can't see the area up ahead so just assumes the AI built them naturally. I came to this conclusion after, like the OP, getting tired of going to an area after having destroyed an army or two and the AI magically has new armies ready to face me. So i started using ninjas so i could see as much of the map as i could and do you want to guess what happened? The magical armies out of nowhere disappeared and i never had a problem again.
This is part of a very old debate that goes back to spring of 2011, when Shogun 2 released.

There are ways to remove all fog-of-war with mods and observe what the AI does, and the short answer is that, no, the AI does not generate stacks out of the pure ether, at least outside very defined situations.

Rebel stacks will materialize when a rebellion breaks out, and the Ashikaga are scripted to always have a certain minimum of units for Kyoto, and resurrected factions will spawn in with a few units; but that's it.

The debate never seems to abate, however, probably because of newer players not fully understanding how fog-of-war (fow), agent spotting, and recruitment works, as well as under-exploiting their economy.

Regular clans must recruit their units to form their stacks. They need to have the proper buildings to recruit, just like the player. This means you can actually halt AI recruitment of, say, Katana Sam, by sabotaging their Sword Dojo.

On Hard difficulty they get slight bonuses that enable them to recruit more easily, and on VH they get significant bonuses. These bonuses are reduced recruit cost, upkeep cost, and a couple of extra recruit slots. So on VH, an AI clan could basically recruit 4 to 5 Katana Sam in the time it takes the player to recruit 2.

Nonetheless, even on VH the AI clan has to be able to recruit those units, can have recruitment interrupted in the interim, and must march those units out to an army stack upon finishing recruitment.

On Normal, and especially on Easy, the player actually will be at an advantage against any single AI clan in terms of recruit and upkeep costs, and will have the same slot capacity, which, combined with superior human ability to actually lay abstract plans over time, means that the player can theoretically out-produce any single AI clan of an equivalent to even slightly larger (province) size.

Coming back to earlier, I've come to the conclusion based on what I've seen and heard over the last, nearly ten, years, that newer players usually under-exploit their own economy, resulting in them then over stating how much capacity the AI has, especially on Hard, Normal and Easy.

For example, many newer players don't realize that Metsuke can radically increase the incomes of a province; they don't take into account the "Admin Cost" modifier as their realm grows larger; they don't understand how important it is to have a good Koku surplus; they try to upgrade too many castles; they don't maximize the Finance Minister office to cut costs; they try to recruit way too many samurai units, way too early; they may never use the Bribe action at all, which can save thousands of Koku for the same amount of troops; they turtle with large stacks of troops (draining monies through upkeep), rather than recruit big for a push and then "demobilizing" (disbanding) unnecessary units when consolidating gains; etc.

As a result, newer players often have far fewer troops than they could have, meaning they are less likely to crush threatening clans early enough, which in turn puts them into a cycle of trying to "play catch up" by layer early game, so they go into mid game way too weak, and then the cycle just gets worse. To top it off, they'll then kick off Realm Divide way too early, and that's when the overwhelming AI wave will definitely happen to them, if it hadn't already.

Newer players also don't seem to reckon fow, or they misunderstand how it works. One of the biggest misconceptions seems to be that if you send a Ninja into an area, he can run into hidden AI stacks, provided you move him around enough. The reality is that a Ninja can be in the same exact tile as an army stack hidden in forests, and the Ninja may still not spot them, resulting in this stack "materializing out of nothing" a turn or two later. Newer players also don't often understand that agent action success is seeded at the start of each turn, so you can reload as many times as you want, and that won't allow you to find a stack that the Ninja wasn't going to find, by using "trial and error" to search the whole area.

Newer players also tend to underappreciate the leveling effects of agents. So just like how Metsuke are usually underutilized in raising tax efficiency or bribing enemy units, Ninja are expected by newer players to be very effective at lvl 1 or 2: they aren't. They need to be buffed, and then groomed down a specific branch on their tree to actually start showing their true worth, not be jack-of-all-trades. Embedding Ninja into a stack also has different effects for the stack's spotting potential than simply having the Ninja in the general area.

So basically, newer players have weaker economies and less troops than they could have, which necessarily makes AI clans stronger by default. They then blunder into hidden AI stacks because they don't exploit the power of Ninja, or not uncommonly, don't even have any Ninja at all.

When confronted with the stacks, they then have limited tools at their disposal because of the under utilization of both Ninja and Metsuke, they have weird army builds, and/or they try to fight way too lobsided of battles: sometimes the best thing to do is strategically withdraw, hit the AI stacks when they're not at an advantage, and then push into a province.

Newer players tend to be either overly defensive when the AI invades, or overly aggressive when invading an AI province, while the ideal strategy is to actually move between aggressive and defensive smoothly and constantly as situations develop.
Krono Dec 3, 2020 @ 1:43pm 
Originally posted by master_dave:
Tell me how to fight off 100 20 stack AIs or make a valid reply or don't post.
You aren't fighting anywhere near 100 full 20 stack armies, and everybody who's ever played the game knows it. If you want to know what that looks like, check out the video series I posted where the mod the guy was using makes Realm Divide happen on turn 4.

Originally posted by master_dave:
Unless you can answer how an AI faction with ONE province can maintain a 20 stack of Samurai, don't reply.
Even on Legendary difficulty, the AI doesn't get full samurai stacks with only one province, it's going to be ashigaru with just a few samurai units. Maybe if it was REALLY late into the campaign and that AI faction has a province with a gold mine that is well developed.

Originally posted by master_dave:
The main point of the thread is that the game is boring. Nothing in this thread has changed my mind about it.

The AI gets more 20 stacks than the player can possibly afford. You can't argue that. Even if I could win against 20 stacks it is boring.
.
But... it doesn't. Even when one faction grows to 20+ provinces I've never seen them field more than 6-8 stacks at any one time, something the player can easily replicate if you manage your economy well enough

I have to concur with the rest, you should just stick with Civ. Critical thinking might not be your thing
Krono Dec 3, 2020 @ 1:48pm 
Also, it's just occurred to me that buddy probably doesn't know his Yari Ashigaru can use Yari wall, I know I didn't know about it when I started. That makes your Ashigaru significantly stronger as long as you can position them faster and get the spears facing an enemy
markeason Dec 3, 2020 @ 3:08pm 
Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:
This is part of a very old debate . . . (and lots more)

Magnificent post - Doffs cap
FirePrism Dec 5, 2020 @ 3:41pm 
Total War does crank up armies out of nowhere that shouldn't exist, and sometimes it's legitimately annoying. there's a mod that deals with it in Shogun 2, but it is annoying. to be fair though, Shogun 2 isn't as hard or as difficult to understand as some of the games that come after that rely on "super" units instead of direct military conflict. in this game, if you actually read and understand Sun Tzu and apply the principles you will have an easier time of winning. placing your army in death's ground, using fire to break your enemy's morale, and engaging your enemy only when it favors you (death's ground) are legitimate Sun Tzu principles to apply when you play. The devs had a video when this game was in development about apply Sun Tzu for the first time to their games, and this was the result.
Liberty Shingen Dec 5, 2020 @ 6:25pm 
Originally posted by FirePrism:
Total War does crank up armies out of nowhere that shouldn't exist, and sometimes it's legitimately annoying. there's a mod that deals with it in Shogun 2, but it is annoying. to be fair though, Shogun 2 isn't as hard or as difficult to understand as some of the games that come after that rely on "super" units instead of direct military conflict. in this game, if you actually read and understand Sun Tzu and apply the principles you will have an easier time of winning. placing your army in death's ground, using fire to break your enemy's morale, and engaging your enemy only when it favors you (death's ground) are legitimate Sun Tzu principles to apply when you play. The devs had a video when this game was in development about apply Sun Tzu for the first time to their games, and this was the result.


胜兵先胜而后求战,败兵先战而后求胜

and you have folks with thesis discussion on attack+4 is way better than armour how to win every battle against full bot stack how much armour is optimal for cavalry smh
Krono Dec 6, 2020 @ 1:59am 
Originally posted by Liberty Shingen:
and you have folks with thesis discussion on attack+4 is way better than armour how to win every battle against full bot stack how much armour is optimal for cavalry smh
Yeah haha crazy that people sandwich the victory potato lasagna smh amirite
master_dave Dec 18, 2020 @ 10:51pm 
Played another campaign. Unfortunately I have to say the game is still boring. Right when you start to win the AI will start doing every cheap trick in the book to stop you from winning. For instance, when I'm at 24 PROVINCES oh the Otomo magically bribe my capital. What a load of crap. Sure, I could turn the game around but it's just yawn. Realm Divide = AI spawning a full stack every 2 or 3 turns. No challenge, I can beat them, but it's just boring. Even the AI with one province can do this. The AI cheating in this game is just boring bad game design.

Plus other blatant cheating like the AI being at peace with you yet when they declare war they can just stay in your borders.

We can't program AI so let's just make every AI churn out a full stack every 2 turns.

You get close to winning and every AI just starts pulling out full stacks. Hahaha, I mean I could still win the campaign but still boring. Defeating 20 stack after 20 stack after 20 stack after 20 stack after 20 stack is just boring.

Defeat one Otomo full stack. Okay.....

Defeat one Chosokabe full stack. Okay....

Defeat another Otomo full stack. Yawn... Okay.

Defeat another Chosokabe full stack. Yawn... Okay.

Defeat a third Otomo full stack. YAAAAAWN. BORING.
Last edited by master_dave; Dec 18, 2020 @ 11:00pm
Krono Dec 18, 2020 @ 11:40pm 
Good luck with therapy man
Elitewrecker PT Dec 19, 2020 @ 3:34am 
What's the problem with declaring war inside the territory?
easytarget Dec 19, 2020 @ 8:10am 
Master Dave, you should at the very least consider changing your name.
Tanegashima Dec 19, 2020 @ 9:28am 
Master Dave,consider changing your name to Ashikaga Yoshiaki.
Cursed Life Dec 19, 2020 @ 10:18am 
The real problem is having to do 4 naval battles every turn
Originally posted by Charmed Life:
The real problem is having to do 4 naval battles every turn
Try fall of the samurai. I just give up. The ships cost an arm and a leg but burn up the moment an HE looks at it.
Krono Dec 19, 2020 @ 6:08pm 
Originally posted by Charmed Life:
The real problem is having to do 4 naval battles every turn
Having to watch the end screen like a hawk for naval invasions is the most annoying part of Realm Divide for sure, although it's kinda satisfying to sink an enemy Daimyo, his two sons, and an elite samurai army all in one go
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