Total War: SHOGUN 2

Total War: SHOGUN 2

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master_dave Nov 20, 2020 @ 3:08pm
AI cheating makes campaign boring.
The AI cheating makes the campaign in this game boring. I'm tired of having superior armies, better tactics and getting my ass kicked. This game is just boring because of the cheating AI.

I'm not losing because of my strategy, I'm not losing because of my units, I'm losing because the AI is cheating pulling full armies out of nowhere. Straight BS, no way to counter it. You kill a full stack with 3 generals and then the AI just magically pops another full stack with 2 more generals.

The music, art and graphics for this game is great. But the cheating AI is just boring.
Last edited by master_dave; Nov 20, 2020 @ 3:10pm
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Showing 1-15 of 182 comments
master_dave Nov 20, 2020 @ 4:47pm 
Originally posted by Facepalm Full O' Napalm:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2192894520&searchtext=reduced+ai+cheating

This mod might be of interest to you.
Hmm. I might have to look at that.
markeason Nov 21, 2020 @ 3:05am 
master_dave

A couple of suggestions, use ninjas to scout ahead, a province or two. You will see that the AI has got these full stacks already, they are not magically generated, (though I imagine the AI gets boosts to income thereby effectively reducing cost of recruitment / upkeep - it has to, to keep the game challenging).

When you know where the stacks are, focus your attack on poorly defended provinces or, isolated stacks that cannot be reached by other stacks on the next turn.

When the time comes to attack that province where there are 5 stacks present or in range, make sure to have all your levelled up ninjas sabotaging the stacks you don't want to engage with, a monk to demoralise the stack you do want to attack, monks in each of your own stacks (I always use 2 stacks for this) and, if any of the ninjas fail, keep the armies back out of range and try again next turn.

When you attack, you should have the advantage two stacks to one. You win, you pursue, you eliminate the first stack if possible. If out of range, do not pursue. The next turn, repeat on he next stack.

It is all about spending time, and performing trivial acts to get your characters levelled up in the appropriate skills to be able to do this.

Once you have dealt with this mass of stacks, the clan has effectively nothing left and you will be able to hoover up its provinces.
BastardSword Nov 21, 2020 @ 10:12pm 
In Shogun 2 if you have a level 3 or higher general, yari ashigaru and bow ashigaru and a few samurai, you should be able to win any battle, at least on Hard.

If you can't then it sounds like you need to learn how to fight battles, or you are getting attacked by two armies at once because you don't know how to isolate enemy armies and destroy them one by one. The AI is not able to spawn armies out of thin air. If you know how to locate and destroy enemy armies effectively you'll find that when you get to the last enemy province it only has one or two units left.

I am however pretty sure that the AI can spawn full armies out of thin air in FOTS, but they're always garbage armies that your own cheap armies of 10+ line infantry will easily destroy.
easytarget Nov 22, 2020 @ 9:06am 
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone fails at a game others easily succeed at and then comes to a steam forum to blame the game expecting a sympathetic ear.

Hey, if I can't get a nickel for these I certainly don't mind instead laughing at you.
Cursed Life Nov 22, 2020 @ 10:42am 
Originally posted by BastardSword:
In Shogun 2 if you have a level 3 or higher general, yari ashigaru and bow ashigaru and a few samurai, you should be able to win any battle, at least on Hard.

If you can't then it sounds like you need to learn how to fight battles, or you are getting attacked by two armies at once because you don't know how to isolate enemy armies and destroy them one by one. The AI is not able to spawn armies out of thin air. If you know how to locate and destroy enemy armies effectively you'll find that when you get to the last enemy province it only has one or two units left.

I am however pretty sure that the AI can spawn full armies out of thin air in FOTS, but they're always garbage armies that your own cheap armies of 10+ line infantry will easily destroy.

So if you have and army with 6 units you listed vs an army of 20 you supposed to win?
What
Originally posted by master_dave:
Originally posted by Facepalm Full O' Napalm:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2192894520&searchtext=reduced+ai+cheating

This mod might be of interest to you.
Hmm. I might have to look at that.
Just lower the difficulty until you get a better handle on the game mechanics. If you use mods, you'll never learn how to master the actual game.
Rex Futuri Nov 22, 2020 @ 4:44pm 
Sorry 'Master Gamers', but just cause the game CAN be beaten once you figure out the method, that does not mean the game is not poorly programmed beyond making it worth playing. The AI in this game is garbage, and even thought that can be overcome, it isn't really fun to do so. And fun is the point of the game for most people. This isn't 1982. We're not playing arcade games whose only purpose is beating an increasingly cheating computer. We actually want to enjoy the experience.
Originally posted by Rex Futuri:
Sorry 'Master Gamers', but just cause the game CAN be beaten once you figure out the method, that does not mean the game is not poorly programmed beyond making it worth playing.

We can't prove an assertion with an incongruent negation. It's like saying, "just because you can't flap your arms and fly doesn't mean I can't flap my arms!" The issue is if people can fly by flapping their arms, not whether you can flap your arms or not.

Also, it's self refuting point anyway. In other words, yes, beating the game doesn't demonstrate if the AI is well designed/programmed or not; but not only is that not what I was asserting, it means the inverse is also true, regardless: just because you can't win the game doesn't mean that the AI is poorly designed/programmed.

Originally posted by Rex Futuri:
The AI in this game is garbage, and even thought that can be overcome, it isn't really fun to do so. And fun is the point of the game for most people. This isn't 1982. We're not playing arcade games whose only purpose is beating an increasingly cheating computer. We actually want to enjoy the experience.

That's what my point was: there are 5 difficulty settings.

If you set the game to Normal, the player actually receives buffs over the AI; and if you set it to Easy, the player gets even more buffage. Hard is only slight AI buffs. You don't have to set it to VH or Legendary and struggle.

Regardless, this is a strategy and tactical game. The whole experience centers on beating the AI, because strategy and tactics are done for a reason, ie. to win. If winning requires minimal to no effort, then there is no impetus to develop and implement strategy and tactics, which defeats the whole point of the game.

In other words, there wouldn't be much point in a turn-based-strategy/real-time-tactics game if the AI presented no challenge. That was one of the biggest complaints from the community when it came to RTW, Medieval 2, Empire and NTW, that the strat AI presented no challenge, that is to say, the player stood no credible chance of ever losing.

Since an AI will not be able to form true strategy or tactics comparable to a human in a 4X environment, then to present a credible challenge, the game design needs to present a decent challenge to the player in terms of structure, hence things such as Realm Divide. The different difficulty settings allow different players to approach this structure in a way that doesn't unduly frustrate them.

Lowering the difficulty makes sense, but using mods to eliminate the difficulty does not. If you want the game to be easy, then set it to Easy; putting the game on Legendary and using mods that neuter Legendary in everything that makes it Legendary is silly and pointless.

On the same note, if you actually want to beat the game on higher difficulties, "difficulty" mods are pointless, because they don't allow you to learn the game as it is designed.

So anyway you cut it, these types of mods make no sense. If you want an easier game, you should play on easier difficulty settings. If you want a harder game, then increase the difficulty. Simple. All that these mods do is let the player have an easier time at a higher ostensible setting, which makes no sense, ie. it lets you set the slider higher, but in real terms, everything is lower. It's kinda cringy actually, and I find it sad that people want to do that.
Last edited by Mile pro Libertate; Nov 22, 2020 @ 9:13pm
master_dave Nov 24, 2020 @ 5:22pm 
Originally posted by markeason:
master_dave

A couple of suggestions, use ninjas to scout ahead, a province or two. You will see that the AI has got these full stacks already, they are not magically generated, (though I imagine the AI gets boosts to income thereby effectively reducing cost of recruitment / upkeep - it has to, to keep the game challenging).

When you know where the stacks are, focus your attack on poorly defended provinces or, isolated stacks that cannot be reached by other stacks on the next turn.

When the time comes to attack that province where there are 5 stacks present or in range, make sure to have all your levelled up ninjas sabotaging the stacks you don't want to engage with, a monk to demoralise the stack you do want to attack, monks in each of your own stacks (I always use 2 stacks for this) and, if any of the ninjas fail, keep the armies back out of range and try again next turn.

When you attack, you should have the advantage two stacks to one. You win, you pursue, you eliminate the first stack if possible. If out of range, do not pursue. The next turn, repeat on he next stack.

It is all about spending time, and performing trivial acts to get your characters levelled up in the appropriate skills to be able to do this.

Once you have dealt with this mass of stacks, the clan has effectively nothing left and you will be able to hoover up its provinces.
I don't know they seem magically generated to me.

I'm already sabotaging and demoralising are armies. It's still too hard to beat the AI.

Originally posted by BastardSword:
In Shogun 2 if you have a level 3 or higher general, yari ashigaru and bow ashigaru and a few samurai, you should be able to win any battle, at least on Hard.

If you can't then it sounds like you need to learn how to fight battles, or you are getting attacked by two armies at once because you don't know how to isolate enemy armies and destroy them one by one. The AI is not able to spawn armies out of thin air. If you know how to locate and destroy enemy armies effectively you'll find that when you get to the last enemy province it only has one or two units left.

I am however pretty sure that the AI can spawn full armies out of thin air in FOTS, but they're always garbage armies that your own cheap armies of 10+ line infantry will easily destroy.
Nope, I have tons of yari ashigaru, tons of bow ashigaru a few samurai and I still can't beat the game. It's not about isolating armies, it's that in the end game every AI can just send massive stacks at you.

It's just boring. It's no fun when every single AI can just throw 20 stack Samurai at you. There's no strategy, there's no brains, just every single AI clan throwing 20 stacks at you. Boring.

Every single game I get to the realm divide and its just every single AI throwing full stacks at me. This is on NORMAL.

I want to like this game, but at the end you always lose because the AI can push out more units then its possible for you to. It's just boring when an AI with 2 cities can somehow afford a 20 stack of Samurai. It's not challenging it's just unfair and boring.

Any strategy is trumped by the fact that any AI can just throw 20 stacks of samurai almost every turn. Eliminates any strategy. Of course you're going to lose because there's no way the player can build that many samurai without going bankrupt.

In other games like Civilization VI the AI cheats, but if you have a good strategy, you can stop the AI pretty easily. In this game, no matter your strategy you get beat because every single faction can afford multiple 20 samurai stacks that the player can't afford.
Last edited by master_dave; Nov 24, 2020 @ 5:29pm
easytarget Nov 24, 2020 @ 8:22pm 
There's no need to exaggerate to make a point you're finding the game challenging, claiming that every clan post RD is throwing full stacks at you is just going to be called as ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ by everyone who has ever played the game because they all know as I do this is simply not the case.

I've won nearly every campaign I've played with 3 maybe 4 stacks.

What you should be focused on instead is what to change in order to win.

Take for example pausing your expansion at the point your fame bar is full. Taking a breather to get your armies together and in the right place, coupled with getting some money in the bank, plus agents buffed up and ready to go is never going to be a bad idea.

And let's just say I was to take you seriously on your claim of being swarmed by stacks of armies coming at you (I'm not mind you, but I'll play along for the purposes of telling you how to deal with it), agents can solve this problem entirely.

A fully ranked ninja can stop the movement and reinforcement of any enemy army. They can kill the generals in that army. They can kill the agents of the opposing army. And here's one that should really grab your attention, a metsuke can buy part or all of that opposing army that is coming at you and viola, that army that was threatening you is now your army to command.

I could go on and on like this, but first how about you just try some of the above, even just a part of what I've listed if implemented would result in you winning a campaign on normal.
Gronas Nov 25, 2020 @ 1:40am 
AI only cheats on VH and Legendary, if you don't like the challange, play on lower difficulty. On easy and I believe also on medium, it's actually you, who is cheating in compare to AI. Companies are not able to program AI that would be challanging on the battlefield so they have to make the challange somewhere else but actually in Shogun 2 I think it is no that drastic as you are making it seem.
BastardSword Nov 25, 2020 @ 2:13am 
Originally posted by Charmed Life:
Originally posted by BastardSword:
In Shogun 2 if you have a level 3 or higher general, yari ashigaru and bow ashigaru and a few samurai, you should be able to win any battle, at least on Hard.

If you can't then it sounds like you need to learn how to fight battles, or you are getting attacked by two armies at once because you don't know how to isolate enemy armies and destroy them one by one. The AI is not able to spawn armies out of thin air. If you know how to locate and destroy enemy armies effectively you'll find that when you get to the last enemy province it only has one or two units left.

I am however pretty sure that the AI can spawn full armies out of thin air in FOTS, but they're always garbage armies that your own cheap armies of 10+ line infantry will easily destroy.

So if you have and army with 6 units you listed vs an army of 20 you supposed to win?
What

Should have said if you had a full stack. Never go anywhere without a full stack in Shogun 2 if you can help it.
BastardSword Nov 25, 2020 @ 2:17am 
Originally posted by master_dave:
Nope, I have tons of yari ashigaru, tons of bow ashigaru a few samurai and I still can't beat the game. It's not about isolating armies, it's that in the end game every AI can just send massive stacks at you.

It's just boring. It's no fun when every single AI can just throw 20 stack Samurai at you. There's no strategy, there's no brains, just every single AI clan throwing 20 stacks at you. Boring.

Every single game I get to the realm divide and its just every single AI throwing full stacks at me. This is on NORMAL.

I want to like this game, but at the end you always lose because the AI can push out more units then its possible for you to. It's just boring when an AI with 2 cities can somehow afford a 20 stack of Samurai. It's not challenging it's just unfair and boring.

Any strategy is trumped by the fact that any AI can just throw 20 stacks of samurai almost every turn. Eliminates any strategy. Of course you're going to lose because there's no way the player can build that many samurai without going bankrupt.

Well this is not happening. The AI likes to use lots of full stacks of yari samurai and bow samurai from fairly early on in the game. Use the army composition I listed and you'll win every time if you know how to use spear wall. But if you keep destroying enemy armies the AI will be unable to replace them quicker than you can destroy them. And you do realize that when you hit realm divide everyone is at war with you? If you prepare for Realm Divide it's really not a big deal.

If you're getting frustrated then just stop playing the game, it's only worth playing the game if it's fun to you. I consider Shogun 2 to be the only really fair and balanced Total War game. Later games like Warhammer and Troy are unplayable for me because the AI will actually abuse the forced march mechanic to constantly raid your towns then run away endlessly. In Shogun 2 the AI can't do that.
Mile pro Libertate Nov 25, 2020 @ 12:39pm 
Originally posted by master_dave:
Originally posted by markeason:
master_dave

A couple of suggestions, use ninjas to scout ahead, a province or two. You will see that the AI has got these full stacks already, they are not magically generated, (though I imagine the AI gets boosts to income thereby effectively reducing cost of recruitment / upkeep - it has to, to keep the game challenging).

When you know where the stacks are, focus your attack on poorly defended provinces or, isolated stacks that cannot be reached by other stacks on the next turn.

When the time comes to attack that province where there are 5 stacks present or in range, make sure to have all your levelled up ninjas sabotaging the stacks you don't want to engage with, a monk to demoralise the stack you do want to attack, monks in each of your own stacks (I always use 2 stacks for this) and, if any of the ninjas fail, keep the armies back out of range and try again next turn.

When you attack, you should have the advantage two stacks to one. You win, you pursue, you eliminate the first stack if possible. If out of range, do not pursue. The next turn, repeat on he next stack.

It is all about spending time, and performing trivial acts to get your characters levelled up in the appropriate skills to be able to do this.

Once you have dealt with this mass of stacks, the clan has effectively nothing left and you will be able to hoover up its provinces.
I don't know they seem magically generated to me.

I'm already sabotaging and demoralising are armies. It's still too hard to beat the AI.

Originally posted by BastardSword:
In Shogun 2 if you have a level 3 or higher general, yari ashigaru and bow ashigaru and a few samurai, you should be able to win any battle, at least on Hard.

If you can't then it sounds like you need to learn how to fight battles, or you are getting attacked by two armies at once because you don't know how to isolate enemy armies and destroy them one by one. The AI is not able to spawn armies out of thin air. If you know how to locate and destroy enemy armies effectively you'll find that when you get to the last enemy province it only has one or two units left.

I am however pretty sure that the AI can spawn full armies out of thin air in FOTS, but they're always garbage armies that your own cheap armies of 10+ line infantry will easily destroy.
Nope, I have tons of yari ashigaru, tons of bow ashigaru a few samurai and I still can't beat the game. It's not about isolating armies, it's that in the end game every AI can just send massive stacks at you.

It's just boring. It's no fun when every single AI can just throw 20 stack Samurai at you. There's no strategy, there's no brains, just every single AI clan throwing 20 stacks at you. Boring.

Every single game I get to the realm divide and its just every single AI throwing full stacks at me. This is on NORMAL.

I want to like this game, but at the end you always lose because the AI can push out more units then its possible for you to. It's just boring when an AI with 2 cities can somehow afford a 20 stack of Samurai. It's not challenging it's just unfair and boring.

Any strategy is trumped by the fact that any AI can just throw 20 stacks of samurai almost every turn. Eliminates any strategy. Of course you're going to lose because there's no way the player can build that many samurai without going bankrupt.

In other games like Civilization VI the AI cheats, but if you have a good strategy, you can stop the AI pretty easily. In this game, no matter your strategy you get beat because every single faction can afford multiple 20 samurai stacks that the player can't afford.
If you try to match strength to strength, you'll lose. You have to match strength to weakness.

The AI's strength is that, especially after Realm Divide kicks off, and especially on higher difficulty settings, it has a unit production and replenishment advantage. That is also the player's weakness.

The player's strength is that he is a mind with actual strategic ability. The AI can't "think" anywhere close to a human. So that is also the AI's weakness, that it can't actually form grand strategy, but only very low order, cut-and-dried tactics like send all the katanas to chop up yari ash, or hold this hill when on defense.

If you try to match the AI where it's strong, and don't exploit your own strength, then you're giving it (the AI) the advantage, and you'll radically increase the chances of losing the game.

So if the AI is coming at you with say three stacks of mostly samurai, and you have one stack of mostly ashigaru, you shouldn't think to yourself, "how do I get two more stacks of samurai?" That is just not an efficient use of your strength. You're thinking like the AI, ie. your setting yourself up to play in the AI's sandbox, and so you'll be perpetually at an inherent disadvantage.

Instead, you need to play to your strengths, and match them to the AI weakness: you can be cunning with your agents, you can draw their stacks to unfavorable ground, you can ambush them, do night attacks, maximize your ashigaru with abilities and Stand and Fight, employ your few samurai as a strike force/reserve in battle rather than just hurl them at the opposing line, etc. etc.

So as EasyTarget touched on, you don't just throw yourself at those three incoming stacks. You can bribe one stack, sabotage one stack, kill a general, or some combo of all. You can be defensive and bait them into destruction, then go on offense rapidly once those three stacks are taken care of, swallowing up their ten province or so kingdom quickly, allowing you to increase your strength against the other couple of clans facing you. Make peace where appropriate; use marriage alliances and bribery; use vassals; etc.

Think of it like this: you're playing an MP campaign in a two player strategy game, and you have two choices. The first choice is an opponent who is a six year old kid, who has never played the game before, but is given double the starting funds for his army lists and infrastructure, plus 33% reduced build times. The second choice is a seasoned, adult player who has won multiple tournaments. Which opponent do you reckon you are more likely to beat easily? Who cares about 33% reduced build time and such if the opponent is a six year old kid with no experience at the game?
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