How would a Christian Shogun have changed Japan?

[Das Boot]

In the main campaign it's possible to convert your clan to Christianity and to still conquer Japan as the Shogun. The Otomo clan even starts Christian.

This made me curious. Suppose a Christian Diamyo actually did become Shogun and unify Japan under his rule. How would that change the trajectory of the country's development?

[Froz7y]

Well look at the West today.. thats why i look to the East now, coz atleast i can enjoy boobs and panty shots.

[Mary]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Midknight Battler:

Well look at the West today.. thats why i look to the East now, coz atleast i can enjoy boobs and panty shots.

Not all of the East is created equal.

[markeason]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Setouchi Mary:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Midknight Battler:

Well look at the West today.. thats why i look to the East now, coz atleast i can enjoy boobs and panty shots.

Not all of the East is created equal.

Nor, thankfully, is the west.

[Particularly Posadist]

Japan as a Portuguese puppet. We wouldn't be talking about the Sengoku Jidai is a formative period of Japan or a particularly romantic era of Japan as a nation but the formation of Japan or the historic identity of Japan as being a much later period. A total war about Japan or the formation of Japan might be contemporary, an episode in the 1940's-1970's period of Portuguese colonial history of the Guerro Overmar, the Overseas War since the introduction of Christianity as a presence in Japan would have most likely triggered a series of concessions the Japanese state would have to make to Portugal, or Christians inviting Portugal in more and more to defend Christian properties and there being a rump independent Japanese government which is slowly subsumed by Portugal taking a more active political and economic role in Japan to feed its mercantile empire, ultimately resulting in the country being a feather in the Portuguese cap is Angola, Brazil, and Mozambique.

This does mean that all other events being the same, Japan'd be de facto ruled for a time from Brazil when the monarchy of Portugal switched to Brazil for a time during the Napoleonic Wars.

Part of the reason why we can speak of an independent Japan in contrast to its Asian peers in mainland Asia was that following the warlord period they did close their borders and they did ban Christians and did shrink the presence of European merchants (The Dutch) to such an tiny enclave as they had. This helped to preserve Japanese craftsmen and the market of the Japanese islands so that for the centuries they remained cloistered away they could develop and nurture them on their own. This never meant the Japanese were unaware of the outside world, they knew what was going on, and until Matthew Perry arrived to shout, "knock knock open up" they would have been distinctly aware of and sensitive to the changes European and American activities in China were making and the instability there-in. But at the same time the time shut off between the Sengoku Jidai and the preamble to the Meiji Restoration Japan had ample time to reorient its development from leaning on a strict military footing based on the power of local warlords to a much more sophisticated and more independent economic foothold. Plus it meant that much of the market thirst of the Western powers was whetted in China.

A Christian presence in Japan during and immediately after the Sengoku Jidai would have meant that the Japanese economy, being fresh from and still in a militaristic feudal footing would not be able to resist far more developed mercantile programs of Europe. The Catholic church being in the country would mean the existence of Catholic property, which being primarily aided by Portugal - because the Treaty of Tordesillas would have firmly named Japan as being Portuguese property - would see a lot more of the Lusoids coming to Japan to help "defend" Church property, and then extract further concessions from the Emperor and/or Shogun for going through the trouble. We would cease speaking of Japanese history here as an independent subject, and now go into Portuguese history: what change in Asia does this mean for Portugal, do we see Chinese exploitation by a better positioned Portugal? Does this negate what would have otherwise be five hundred years of Portuguese backwards development since they otherwise just leaned heavier and heavier on their colonies for wealth instead of investing said wealth into Portugal itself unlike other European powers? We probably no longer see a Meiji Restoration, but perhaps a Japanese national awakening and revolutions in the mid-19th century to - and if this hasn't altered the make up of European politics that much - the World Wars. The dawn of Japanese national existence would be much more like, 1850-1950.


So there's my more... two dollars I guess on this.

[mltnschroeder]

I don't think it would have been a given that the Portuguese Catholicism would have dominated in Japan. In fact, since historically the Portuguese were kicked out by the Tokugawa Shogunate while the Dutch were allowed to trade, I think it is more likely that Protestantism (or some Asian hybrid) would have become the dominant form of Christianity in Japan.

The Dutch, having won their independence from Spain (who was allied with Portugal) were aggressive traders, and cornered a monopoly in Nutmeg and Cloves in Indonesia. This put the Dutch East India Company in direct conflict with the English East India Company, who were trying to do the same. After several messy wars, the historical result was that the two sides signed a treaty whereby the Dutch ceded their colony in N America to England and the English ceded their spice islands to the Dutch (the Dutch got the better deal at the time). Also, the Dutch had a manufactory in Malacca that made arquebusts for Japanese trade.

The Dutch also became very involved in fighting Spain, France and the Palatinate (part of the Holy Roman Empire) in the 17th & 18th century, really punching above their weight. So the Dutch needed military allies. I think this resonated well with Japan.

So if Japan had become Christian, perhaps they would have grown closer ties specifically with Holland, and thus more open to Dutch influence/ideas (and vice-versa) while remaining guarded vs other European powers. One might have seen Japan develop her own western-style navy a century earlier, and thus become a naval power in her own right in the Pacific by Napoleonic times. Maybe even a Dutch/Japanese merchantile alliance could have challenged the English tea trade with China, which could have changed world history quite a bit.

[BastardSword]

Unlike European countries of the time, Japan in and around the sengoku jidai era had a massive population. It also had massive standing armies and an existing hierarchy which was used to its power and privileges. Japan was never going to be colonized by European countries, via religion or other means.

[Particularly Posadist]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von mltnschroeder:

I don't think it would have been a given that the Portuguese Catholicism would have dominated in Japan. In fact, since historically the Portuguese were kicked out by the Tokugawa Shogunate while the Dutch were allowed to trade, I think it is more likely that Protestantism (or some Asian hybrid) would have become the dominant form of Christianity in Japan.

The Dutch, having won their independence from Spain (who was allied with Portugal) were aggressive traders, and cornered a monopoly in Nutmeg and Cloves in Indonesia. This put the Dutch East India Company in direct conflict with the English East India Company, who were trying to do the same. After several messy wars, the historical result was that the two sides signed a treaty whereby the Dutch ceded their colony in N America to England and the English ceded their spice islands to the Dutch (the Dutch got the better deal at the time). Also, the Dutch had a manufactory in Malacca that made arquebusts for Japanese trade.

The Dutch also became very involved in fighting Spain, France and the Palatinate (part of the Holy Roman Empire) in the 17th & 18th century, really punching above their weight. So the Dutch needed military allies. I think this resonated well with Japan.

So if Japan had become Christian, perhaps they would have grown closer ties specifically with Holland, and thus more open to Dutch influence/ideas (and vice-versa) while remaining guarded vs other European powers. One might have seen Japan develop her own western-style navy a century earlier, and thus become a naval power in her own right in the Pacific by Napoleonic times. Maybe even a Dutch/Japanese merchantile alliance could have challenged the English tea trade with China, which could have changed world history quite a bit.

The thing with the Dutch though is they were very openly there just for Japanese commodities for purchase and resale back in Europe. The Portuguese were there for that, and more. They were a much more aggressive European actor with blessings from the Pope and agreement with Spain that Japan was their's. Portugal was there screaming about God. Part of the process of which was establishing church properties, for church operations, that operated outside the "national" framework of the country. For a very long time even in Europe, before the Protestant Reformation - which would be during the time of the game, very young and only a European factor - the Catholic Church was a major land owner that functioned separate and often equal to the nobles of Europe; a dichotomy which would not change until the arrival of Protestantism as a major force to break Church property and organize it into their own states; all former Catholic church properties becoming Anglican and thus firmly and totally under the British Crown for example.

And Japan at the Sengoku Jidai wouldn't be entirely dissimilar from Europe. Yes, Japan had a large population, probably larger than Angola, Mozambique, or Brazil at the time of the game. But large dispairities in colony vs colonizer populations hasn't ever prevented one from taking over the other and Portuguese domination of Japan need not be instant at the victory of the Otomo for instance. But to be merely the start of a process, as implicated in the post. A Christian-Catholic Daimyo (because this is important, the Dutch didn't care about religious conversion as much as Portugal, and the Dutch would still have a century to go yet before they both become an independent power, and are protestant, and at this point are probably having to conform to the Spanish agreement in the Treaty of Tordesillas, so are a non or limited factor. So it is, and will continue to be Portugal) rules Japan militarily, having to manage the regional military governor's ambitions, as well as protect Catholic Church property; he and his clan is basically alien and needs help, the Portugueuse have commercial and religious ambitions so they keep coming in to do the thing, take over some concessions, maybe remove the civil governance technically under the control of the Emperor. Portuguese alliances with locals embeds themselves in the region as Portugal develops the Japanese commodities market for Portuguese trade because the Samurai class locally ruling Japan is fresh from and knows only how to administer for war.

Comparatively and to illustrate this point, the Imjin War was carried out primarily because the Japanese internal economy was still oriented for war and this is 1592. The primary method local Samurai clans had to get further wealth was through land conquests in war, not commercial adventures like Portugal or the Dutch because the Japanese had just come out of a long period of warfare and the mainland Asian powers were hesitant or explicitly did not allow trade with Japan (China would historically shut down all its naval trade for periods in order to cope with and starve out Japanese pirates). So the fully militarized Japanese economy, and its unstable clans had to be directed on new conquests for territory and wealth, and maybe even a viable means of trade.

This is emblematic of the poor and unsteady foundations of Japan during and after the Sengoku Jidai that someone as proactive as Portugal could have taken advantage of. A comparison might be made to British India, which despite significantly larger population than England, and in some cases perhaps more well developed than them all the same became a British subject through a process of dividing and exploiting the political disunity and fragility of the Indian sub-continent because of its independent and numerous warlords and alliances against one another. Portugal would have the same situation in Japan, more so if a Christian Daimyo were to be Shogun and just prime the landscape for a new phase and continuation of the warring states period.

[TheOrangeBox]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Setouchi Mary:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TheOrangeBox:

. . . in ruin.

Also probably that, at the same time. Like, not because Christianity is one of those things, but because there are probably other implications tied to it that made the Edo period last as long as it did under the Tokugawa.

Christianity was built and consolidated upon an imperial patriarchal political power - the pope as the ultimate monarch to the state soul salvation and resources.
His emissaries scattered across the globe to save and conquer souls and lands.
It left behind devastation to once flourishing cultures and societies diversity, it depleted the very people they ought to save.

In Japan, the Jesuit missionaries worked to convert the feudal lords of the area, and by the early 17th century, Nagasaki had become the "Rome of Japan". Nowhere else in Japan was as Christian as Nagasaki was. Up to 500,000 people in Nagasaki were identified as Christian.
The rapid growth of the religion posed a threat to the central government, a political threat to security of the state.
In 1614, a strict nationwide ban on Christianity was issued and Japan as a whole entered a period of isolation. It become a flourishing 200 years period for Japan under the Tokugawa Shogunate.

The 16th Century was the age of discovery for the Roman Catholic Church establishing a number of missions in the Americas and other colonies in order to spread Christianity in the New World moving into Asia and the Far East and converting native peoples. Missions were in effect associated with cultural imperialism and oppression under the Padroado treaty with the Holy See, by which the Vatican delegated to the kings the administration of the local churches. It eclipsed that of the Roman period and made it a truly global religion empire.

So that's why in my opinion looking at the historical events, the isolation of Japan saved the country from a Christian empire take over and destruction of their own national and cultural identity and resources.

[Preacher]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TheOrangeBox:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Setouchi Mary:

Also probably that, at the same time. Like, not because Christianity is one of those things, but because there are probably other implications tied to it that made the Edo period last as long as it did under the Tokugawa.

Christianity was built and consolidated upon an imperial patriarchal political power - the pope as the ultimate monarch to the state soul salvation and resources.
His emissaries scattered across the globe to save and conquer souls and lands.
It left behind devastation to once flourishing cultures and societies diversity, it depleted the very people they ought to save.

In Japan, the Jesuit missionaries worked to convert the feudal lords of the area, and by the early 17th century, Nagasaki had become the "Rome of Japan". Nowhere else in Japan was as Christian as Nagasaki was. Up to 500,000 people in Nagasaki were identified as Christian.
The rapid growth of the religion posed a threat to the central government, a political threat to security of the state.
In 1614, a strict nationwide ban on Christianity was issued and Japan as a whole entered a period of isolation. It become a flourishing 200 years period for Japan under the Tokugawa Shogunate.

The 16th Century was the age of discovery for the Roman Catholic Church establishing a number of missions in the Americas and other colonies in order to spread Christianity in the New World moving into Asia and the Far East and converting native peoples. Missions were in effect associated with cultural imperialism and oppression under the Padroado treaty with the Holy See, by which the Vatican delegated to the kings the administration of the local churches. It eclipsed that of the Roman period and made it a truly global religion empire.

So that's why in my opinion looking at the historical events, the isolation of Japan saved the country from a Christian empire take over and destruction of their own national and cultural identity and resources.

lol be careful about calling the catholic church "christian"

[TheOrangeBox]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Preacher:

lol be careful about calling the catholic church "christian"

Same mould from the same mud

[Das Boot]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BastardSword:

Unlike European countries of the time, Japan in and around the sengoku jidai era had a massive population. It also had massive standing armies and an existing hierarchy which was used to its power and privileges. Japan was never going to be colonized by European countries, via religion or other means.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Setouchi Mary:

Also probably that, at the same time. Like, not because Christianity is one of those things, but because there are probably other implications tied to it that made the Edo period last as long as it did under the Tokugawa.

A lot of responses here assume that becoming a colony of Portugal will inevitably follow Christainization, but that ignores the fact that Portugal not only had a smaller population than Japan but was also going to lose control of the Pacific in the Dutch-Portuguese War. Around this time Britain and France were more focused on the New World and India, and thus wouldn't make moves on East Asia for some time. That window of time should give a Christian Japan enough time to keep it's military and industrial technologies up to date with Europe while still centralizing.

As for the Edo Period, I think Tokugawa Rule was a net loss for Japan. Apart from the wholesale genocide of a religious minority, this regime was downright Orwellian in how much control they exerted over the lives of Japanese citizens. Rights that Japanese people previously had were stripped away, upward mobility became impossible, and economic growth was slowed by restrictions on the social classes. Sexual slavery also flourished in Japan during this time. The isolation didn't even "protect Japan" as some claim; it directly caused Japan's military to lag behind to the point where a small American flotilla could force threaten it's cities.

Japan was lucky enough to modernize as quickly as it did during the Menji era. Japan could have easily suffered the same fate as China, another country that sought stability through isolation. China faced the Opium Wars and economic domination.

[BastardSword]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Das Boot:

As for the Edo Period, I think Tokugawa Rule was a net loss for Japan. Apart from the wholesale genocide of a religious minority, this regime was downright Orwellian in how much control they exerted over the lives of Japanese citizens. Rights that Japanese people previously had were stripped away, upward mobility became impossible, and economic growth was slowed by restrictions on the social classes.

But it came after the sengoku jidai era which was decades of seemingly endless civil war and social unrest. The contract Japan made was to let the Tokugawa Shogunate rule uncontested, in exchange for peace and stability. That peace and stability led to an artistic renaissance and economic growth. The Japanese maybe could have made more money from opening up to the West, but they didn't want to take the risk of more war and instability.

[TheOrangeBox]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Das Boot:

As for the Edo Period, I think Tokugawa Rule was a net loss for Japan. Apart from the wholesale genocide of a religious minority, this regime was downright Orwellian in how much control they exerted over the lives of Japanese citizens. Rights that Japanese people previously had were stripped away, upward mobility became impossible, and economic growth was slowed by restrictions on the social classes. Not to mention that the isolationism made Japan's military weak enough that it could easily be threatened.

That's the complete opposite of what historical records have shown of the Edo period which emerged from the chaos of the Sengoku period- the Edo period has provided so much to the nation of Japan that is considered the equivalent of a Renaissance.

The economic development alone included:
- productive agriculture
- urbanization
- highly developed financial system
- national infrastructure of roads
- increased shipping of commodities
- significant expansion of domestic commerce
- diffusion of trade and crafted industry
- population boom in major town (eg Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto)
Japan during the Edo period benefitted tremendously, The standard of living for urban and rural dwellers alike grew significantly, Better means of crop production, transport, housing, food, and entertainment were all accessible.
For a preindustrial society, the literacy rate was one of the highest (estimates of 80% in Tokyo), and so on.

Consider the decline of the Edo period when Japan was forced to open to the world by the US Navy, which fired weapons from Tokyo Bay. Foreign intrusions helped to precipitate a complex political struggle between the shogunate and a coalition of aligned foreigners, forcing on foreign trades and devaluing the price for gold in Japan. Cheap goods from these foreign nations flooded the market forcing many Japanese out of business and with foreigners not liable to Japanese law embodying the concept of extraterritoriality with the United States treaty in 1859.

No - it just shows the effect of western imperialism rules that have detrimentally afflicted once a flourishing nation.

[Das Boot]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BastardSword:

But it came after the sengoku jidai era which was decades of seemingly endless civil war and social unrest. The contract Japan made was to let the Tokugawa Shogunate rule uncontested, in exchange for peace and stability. That peace and stability led to an artistic renaissance and economic growth. The Japanese maybe could have made more money from opening up to the West, but they didn't want to take the risk of more war and instability.

Using words like "contract" implies the common people had any say in the matter. They didn't; the Shogun decided the matter for them.

Apart from that I'm not convinced that there was economic growth during this period, let alone that it occurred because of the isolationist policy (rather than despite it). I've read some historical works claiming this is the case, but I've read others claiming the economy stagnated. The fact that there was an economic and industrial boom during the Meiji era leads me to find the latter view more convincing. That's not even comparing it to the growth Japan could have experienced.

As for arts, Japan had artistic traditions before and after the isolation. While art would have been different without isolation, it would still have been distinctly Japanese.

I'm not saying isolation had no benefits; it was a period that was generally peaceful for Japan (apart from peasant revolts), but I have to weigh those benefits against the many drawbacks.

[Particularly Posadist]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Das Boot:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von BastardSword:

But it came after the sengoku jidai era which was decades of seemingly endless civil war and social unrest. The contract Japan made was to let the Tokugawa Shogunate rule uncontested, in exchange for peace and stability. That peace and stability led to an artistic renaissance and economic growth. The Japanese maybe could have made more money from opening up to the West, but they didn't want to take the risk of more war and instability.

Using words like "contract" implies the common people had any say in the matter. They didn't; the Shogun decided the matter for them.

Apart from that I'm not convinced that there was economic growth during this period, let alone that it occurred because of the isolationist policy (rather than despite it). I've read some historical works claiming this is the case, but I've read others claiming the economy stagnated. The fact that there was an economic and industrial boom during the Meiji era leads me to find the latter view more convincing. That's not even comparing it to the growth Japan could have experienced.

As for arts, Japan had artistic traditions before and after the isolation. While art would have been different without isolation, it would still have been distinctly Japanese.

I'm not saying isolation had no benefits; it was a period that was generally peaceful for Japan (apart from peasant revolts), but I have to weigh those benefits against the many drawbacks.

You'd have to consider the economic flowering of Japan less as a growth of GDP as is considered the contemporary measure of economic growth but the redevelopment of the Japanese economy away from the war-time development - social and material - that existed under the Sengoku Jidai and the time shortly after and into a period of peace and calm for a civil peace-time economy to develop. Before, during, and after the Sengoku Jidai the main orientation of the economy was raw production for war's sake against rival clans and against even one's own military provincial governors. This came often at the direct control of land as determining wealth and the productivity of wealth. The Japanese invasion of Korea was an aborted effort by the young Toklugawa Shogunate to in part relieve the tensions in Japan and enrich the land hungry nobility of Japan who had less opportunities to expand their own wealth.

Japan wasn't unaware of what was going on after the period. Its isolation didn't mean was unaware to the world. Because unlike the Portuguese who wanted to press Catholicism on the people the Dutch were just there for material trade commodities and one of the things they delivered to the Japanese in return were European books. The re-opening of Japan - as forced and sudden as it was to the Japanese - at least allowed a fully consolidated Japanese state to act on its infrastructure, which wasn't to just bleed the other samurai nobility out and to acquire as much raw material, land, and associated manpower as possible to fight the others. I say this because said Samurai themselves were quick and flexible to transition into modern capitalists and buisinessmen themselves.