Are guns worth it?

[Flyan!]

Playing as the Otomo. I like the guns, especially in sieges, but it's so much work getting them into a good firing position, and even when I do get them on an enemy flank they seem to struggle to start shooting, and the AI likes to send their generals after them, which then makes me take soldiers away from my frontline to keep them protected, when the bow units can shoot consistently. Is the damage output of guns really worth the extra work it takes to allow them to shoot?

[bkkm12]

If you are playing Otomo, you must use gun. That is their specialty. Other daimyos you have the option to use gun or not.

[Flyan!]

Originally posted by bkkm12:

If you are playing Otomo, you must use gun. That is their specialty. Other daimyos you have the option to use gun or not.

Well I don't have to, as I can still recruit archers. Was just wondering if the situational use of guns is worth bringing, or if I should replace them with something else.

[BastardSword]

Bows are on balance just better. Bows are much much better in open field battles. Matchlocks are maybe 50% better when defending a castle, but their shorter range means you have to be careful about not exposing them to enemy bows.

I've been using matchlocks a lot lately and trying to get the most out of them. The only thing they are really good at is for defending a castle. However by the time that you unlock them in the late game, you are running around attacking enemy cities and you probably are doing zero defending. Otomo can get them from the beginning of a campaign when you actually need to defend castles a lot, so they can get the most out of them.

In an open field battle where the AI is charging its melee units into my units, my matchlocks will get one volley, maybe two. Matchlock samurai will do ok in melee, matchlock ashigaru less so. The matchlocks can hold the line in melee then I can charge my melee units forward and destroy the enemy. Portuguese Tercos meanwhile are basically like katana samurai but with guns.

However the main problem with matchlocks in an open field battle is that they get shredded by bows. Even if I use matchlock samurai with max armor, by the time my matchlocks get two volleys off, enemy bows will have decimated at least one of the matchlock samurai units.

If I use bows in an open-field battle, I can usually destroy the enemy bows easily, which forces the enemy melee units to charge at me. And when the enemy melee units charge in, then I can pull my bows behind my melee units and the bows can still shoot over my guys at the enemy.

When defending a castle then yes matchlocks are better, but bows are still very good.

Now, some other gunpowder units are quite good. Fire rockets have massive range and force the AI to either die or come at you. Tokugawa mounted gunners are good because all of them shoot, not just the gunners at the front of the formation. So they can actually shred enemy units, but you have to be careful about using them because the AI will charge cavalry at them and eat them for lunch. I haven't used Otomo donderbuss cavalry in a long time but I remember them firing really really slowly.

[BastardSword]

Really the best thing to do with matchlocks is when you keep getting attacked and need to defend castles a lot. Maybe you have big aggressive clans that keep attacking you over and over again and won't stay at peace with you. Put a bunch of basic matchlock ashigaru in a level 3 castle and they can hold off anything. However this doesn't happen a lot, by the mid game you should have all your frontiers protected by full stacks of gold armor/attack samurai, which should discourage any of these kinds of invasions.

[Flyan!]

Originally posted by BastardSword:

Really the best thing to do with matchlocks is when you keep getting attacked and need to defend castles a lot. Maybe you have big aggressive clans that keep attacking you over and over again and won't stay at peace with you. Put a bunch of basic matchlock ashigaru in a level 3 castle and they can hold off anything. However this doesn't happen a lot, by the mid game you should have all your frontiers protected by full stacks of gold armor/attack samurai, which should discourage any of these kinds of invasions.

II've just been running 2-or 3 since I haven't been able to get cav yet, and they do alright just getting on the enemy flank. They don't get nearly the same amount of kills as cav can, though.

[Scrotum Scratcher]

use tercos and donderbuss cavalry

[TheDiaper]

In general.. No they are not worth it, all their stats are low and they can only perform one volley before reloading a long while. But keeping one or two in your army can be useful sometimes. Such as defending a large castle or flanking with them then unleash a volley. Tercos however are worth it they have good stats and can handle a battle they are kind of like the strenghth of 1.5 to 2 times of Katana garrison in melee. If you are really crazy and love to have a blast donderbuss is awesome XD

[BastardSword]

Something I've only recently discovered is that you can use hills to get more out of matchlocks. If they are up on a hill and your melee units are below them fighting the enemy, your matchlocks can fire over your melee guys into the enemy.

Also if the enemy is up a hill, the matchlocks can fire up at the enemy over your melee units.

Also in general it's a viable tactic to pull your matchlocks behind your melee units when the enemy melee units crash into them, then let your matchlocks fire into the giant melee. You shouldn't lose too many men to friendly fire, at least if your melee units have good armor. I've done this a bit recently and was surprised at how few friendly fire casualties there were.

[Tocki]

Originally posted by BastardSword:

Something I've only recently discovered is that you can use hills to get more out of matchlocks. If they are up on a hill and your melee units are below them fighting the enemy, your matchlocks can fire over your melee guys into the enemy.

Also if the enemy is up a hill, the matchlocks can fire up at the enemy over your melee units.

Also in general it's a viable tactic to pull your matchlocks behind your melee units when the enemy melee units crash into them, then let your matchlocks fire into the giant melee. You shouldn't lose too many men to friendly fire, at least if your melee units have good armor. I've done this a bit recently and was surprised at how few friendly fire casualties there were.

But keep in mind that friendly fire is one of the biggest morale drops!
When your melee unit is strong, but has low morale, better leave it alone and don’t try to “help”.
I love to stop rush builds with matchlocks and no dachis. In MP unskilled no dachis are cheap, perfect to block the enemy and if friendly fire is too much, I press “banzai”.

[Flyan!]

Originally posted by 大名 Takeda:

Originally posted by Flyan!:

Playing as the Otomo. I like the guns, especially in sieges, but it's so much work getting them into a good firing position, and even when I do get them on an enemy flank they seem to struggle to start shooting, and the AI likes to send their generals after them, which then makes me take soldiers away from my frontline to keep them protected, when the bow units can shoot consistently. Is the damage output of guns really worth the extra work it takes to allow them to shoot?

Guns are worth it if you know how to use them and if you only play OTOMO.

They are only useless when in offensive sieges.

Otomo guns are great at the hands of the Portuguese Tercos, but then again, the biggest speciality of the Otomo is their Nanban Trade Ships which can destroy any japanese navy.

Yeaaaah just ended up not using them towards the end. While it was nice doing major damage to armored infantry bow samurai and bow monks do well enough, especially once you get a gold accuracy province going. Too many situations where the AI would suicide his general or other units to try and get my guns, so most of the time they ended up doing nothing but moving around trying to get in a good spot to shoot. Yari cav and nodachi samurai tanks the enemy morale more than enough for me, and my bow units get many more kills than any of my gun units ever got, unless it's in a siege.

[Meteor Bear]

Otomo was my favorite clan to play and I used them extensively. When defending a castle I would often be outnumbered badly. I would put all my matchlocks in the walls and place ashiguru just in front of the walls with their spears out. Armys would melt like butter. On the battle field I was usually outnumbered too, if there was a hill I would use the same strategy with the matchlocks on the hill overlooking the melee units with cavalry on the flanks. The enemy would charge in, and get constantly peppered by my matchlocks. The trade ships are great too, and with them you can capture a black ship easily, then see battles become a lot of fun. Really matchlocks are kinda weak though, I think they were nerfed after complaint in multiplayer.

[Flyan!]

Originally posted by 大名 Takeda:

Originally posted by Meteor Bear:

Otomo was my favorite clan to play and I used them extensively. When defending a castle I would often be outnumbered badly. I would put all my matchlocks in the walls and place ashiguru just in front of the walls with their spears out. Armys would melt like butter. On the battle field I was usually outnumbered too, if there was a hill I would use the same strategy with the matchlocks on the hill overlooking the melee units with cavalry on the flanks. The enemy would charge in, and get constantly peppered by my matchlocks. The trade ships are great too, and with them you can capture a black ship easily, then see battles become a lot of fun. Really matchlocks are kinda weak though, I think they were nerfed after complaint in multiplayer.

In reality matchlocks had a slightly superior range than bows... but this is heavily neglected in Shogun 2 with only 100 range... this is what ruins them.

THey'd be pretty OP with bow range, I think. I guess they'd probably get outskirmished by bows still, but if you have the ranged advantage and the enemy has to charge you, getting a good 3-4 volleys in instead of the 1-2 they can currently get would make a huge difference in both kills and morale shock.

[tricker]

Not worth imo

[Flyan!]

Originally posted by 大名 Takeda:

Originally posted by Flyan!:

THey'd be pretty OP with bow range, I think. I guess they'd probably get outskirmished by bows still, but if you have the ranged advantage and the enemy has to charge you, getting a good 3-4 volleys in instead of the 1-2 they can currently get would make a huge difference in both kills and morale shock.

I don't think they would be OP, they would still be different.

In reality matchlocks were very good simply because they could be mass-used by peasants and because they could penetrate samurai armor.

Archers would still destroy matchlocks simply due to their superior rate of fire.

But then again, the real facts of superior range (or at least the same range) and the mass-used by pesants is heavily ignored in Shogun 2 and that's why they leave a lot to be desired in-game.

Anyone who has learned about the Sengoku Jidai era would know this.

This is a video game though, and having units that can easily punch through armor, the only thing that gives melee infantry any survivability against ranged units in this game, from the same range as bows would be very powerful. I don't think bows would be able to beat guns if they had the same range, especially matchlock samurai which have armor, giving them pretty decent defense against even bow samurai if you have them in loose, vs guns which have no trouble one shotting anything they hit in this game, as well as the increased morale shock they have.

[VoiD]

Guns replace cav, not bows, you'll need both.

Matchlocks are often best used as morale shock weapons, either flank the formation and instantly rout everything in range as they engage your frontline, or make very thin lines of spear wall yari ashigaru with very large gaps between them and shoot enemies as they surround your frontlines from behind.

Late game you can get some incredibly OP units like portuguese terços which have the same stats as a katana samurai, plus guns with incredible accuracy, reload speed and power. Only reason why you shouldn't field 19 of them is because they are slow to replace, so it's still better to sacrifice some naginata samurai as your frontliners.

The early game guns are still useful for morale shocks but they are quite bad, don't bring too may of them, 2~4 is more than enough, just use them as support weapons.

Guns are also very bad on offensive sieges, they can't hit anything in the castle unless you manage to climb and flank, which is very rare, specially on smaller castles, however on the defensive they can be deadly and instantly rout anything trying to climb the walls, after they do you can pull them back, fire by rank and let ashigaru tie down invaders for you, in one massive siege of 3 full armies vs 1 half army in a tiny castle one of my portuguese terços managed to get over 800 kills this way, it's mad OP if properly positioned and protected.

Edit: Oh and don't even try to use fire by rank unless you're in a position you're sure you can stay for over 2+ minutes without moving for any reason whatsoever (very rare), else you'll be firing a lot less