Warrior Monks OP or armour 14 Naginata Samurai underwhelming ?

[Eldritch]

Hello all, not gonna do a whine thread but something happened in my Hard Date campaign that I found interesting. I had an army made of 8 Ashigaru Yari, 4 Katana Samurai, 4 Naginata Samurai and 4 Bow Monks, all save the monks having max upgrade in armour.

I faced an Ikko-Ikki army made mostly of Naginata Monks and Bow Ronins with a few Ashigaru units. During the battle I snipe the Ronins and a unit and half of Monks before clashing, and send my Naginata with armour 14 on a wide line to take the brunt of the charge, supported by my Yari. My Katana flank both sides once charging is done to use them at the best morale shock I can get.

However it quickly appeared that my Naginata were torn to shreds in a matter of a dozen seconds top, routing on average at 60 men left of the 160 men unit. This quickly scares my Yari and even if my Katanas hold their own and kill a respectable number of Monks, I rallied once but got promptly crushed nonetheless.

I was surprised, first time I tried tank Naginatas for frontline duty expecting them to hold their own but no, they got trashed almost as fast as the Ashigaru. Hence my question: do Monks have armour-piercing or something ? Or is armour just a trash trait to boost ? Or are Naginata Samurais just not good ?

[easytarget]

I use nag sami as front line replacement for ash in pretty much every campaign, rock solid for me. I like them better than any other melee unit in the game. Build them in a province with armor bonus and tank the front line all day long and ignore arrows like the don't exist.

So yes, my experience is dramatically different than yours.

[easytarget]

I find it works perfectly fine. But then unlike a lot of people who have showed up here lately I'm not min maxing this game, because frankly it's not necessary to win.

[BastardSword]

I don't know how important armor is in melee defense, but it definitely has a noticeable effect on damage from bows. Units with max armor can take a full volley of flaming arrows and take only a few casualties.

Naginatas are very good and are my favorite melee unit because of how reliable they are, but like any unit if they are surrounded or attacked from the rear they can lose a lot of guys at once.

[Guts]

I've never found naginata samurai to be worth the increase in upkeep over the ashigaru. Spear units are kind of specialised to be used against cavalry, and don't do well in melee vs most other units unless you vastly outnumber the enemy melee units.

[BastardSword]

I disagree. Naginatas are immune to cavalry and seem to me about as good as katanas or other sword samurai units. They have higher armor than any other unit which means they shrug off armor, and I think this armor helps keep them going in melee as well.

Katanas are actually not hopeless against cavalry, they just take longer to kill them off. But I just don't find them noticeably better than naginatas. No-dachis seem about the same as katanas.

Naginata monks are a bit glass cannon-y but their high morale lets them stay in battle longer than samurai units. As good as naginatas are, they can rout or die out if they are isolated. Same as any unit but at least monks will probably fight to the death instead of routing. Usually best not to end up in that situation though.

[easytarget]

Originally posted by N473:

I've never found naginata samurai to be worth the increase in upkeep over the ashigaru. Spear units are kind of specialised to be used against cavalry, and don't do well in melee vs most other units unless you vastly outnumber the enemy melee units.

Money is never a concern of mine, by mid campaign I'm swimming in it and can recruit anything I want. That's the beauty of this game, there's more than one way to play a campaign.

[Eldritch]

Yeah I should probably have shot the monks before the bows, as the Naginatas could've tanked the arrows better than the monks.