Whats the deal with Ikko Ikki?

[Tricosis]

EDIT 3/28/23
Since this post has been necroed to ♥♥♥♥ and beyond, I'd like to clarify that my opinion on this matter has changed since I posted this verbal diarea of which I was clearly under the influence when writing. Ikko-Ikki is a great ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ faction, that is a fact, don't snort the same ♥♥♥♥ I did.

ORIGINAL POST:
First of they can't recruit metsuke. This is a huge downside! Not only will it rob them for thousands of additional kokus every turn, it will also leave them incredible vurnable to enemy agent spam. In my legendary / very hard campaigns as the Ikko Ikki, I managed to build up formidable forces, yet there was no way in hell that I was able to level up my monk or my ninja in time before the enemy agents arrived. Eventually all my generals were assasinated by high level agents whilist my monk and ninjas at best only had a 30% chance of succeeding. Seems like there is no way to counter such agent spams in the mid game on harder difficulty except with luck, which shouldn't be an alternative in itself.

Another point I want to bring up is that their religion makes forming alliances incredibly difficult. I am generally fine with diplomacy penalties, but when you gain such a big disadvantage, along with no metsuke, it becomes a problem. Having all clans declare war on / or hate you from the start along as having no proper agent protection, ALONG with having no metsuke to boost your economy seems like stretching clan disadvantages too far, but it doesn't end there.

Due to the Ikko Ikki having an entierly unique religion, they will constantly have to deal with religious issues in provinces they capture unless they camp the province for 10+ turns. This prevents them from zerging quickly trough enemy territories with a death army and forces them to expand incredibly slow, because if they don't, they'll have to completely exempt those provinces from taxes. Now combine that with the fact that they have no metsuke. Their economy is horrible and makes it incredibly hard to properly upkeep enough armies to deal with the other clans. Thats a problem when you consider the fact that realm divide basically hits you on turn 1 when playing legendary as the Ikko Ikki.

So what are their advantages? They have a sweet starting position, but the position also forces them to have two stacks of units in order to safely expand, which as should be clear by now, their economy will punish them greatly for.

The other ''advantage'' is that they can recruit ronin units, wich are exclusive to the ikko ikki. The ronin units tend to win over their samurai counterparts despite their lower numbers, but not by a significant margin.

The only real advantage I will say the clan posesses is the loan sword ashigaru wich is an incredibly cost effective early game unit. The problem however is that due to religious problems, the Ikko Ikki will be punished for expanding too quickly, and by the time they have gotten a few provinces at hand, the Loan Sword Ashigarus won't be viable anymore.

So sure, their monk can spawn rebel armies that will capture provinces for you, but is that alone worth all the ♥♥♥♥ they get? The monk tend to get assasinated instantly by enemy agents anyways, leaving the newly recruited ones too weak to properly use their advatage. To me, the Ikko Ikki just seems like a bad clan. They are also hard to play as in Co-Op due to their religion spreading like the plague. Is there something I am missing, because I just don't see how the pros of this clan justify the cons. Is it a clan exclusively meant for people who want an extra challange, or is it just a bad clan? Any clarification on why this clan is actually usefull would be appreciated.

[Tricosis]

No input? Really?

[General Income Tax]

Spam your monks often and early to cause destabalization in every province around you, I found being aggressive meant that I'd always have a few that were high level, even if some were assasinated. The hardest part is the start of the campaign, spam your superior peasants (especially the katana dudes), afterwards once you get your conquering ball rolling you'll be fine.

Ikko Ikki is a lot of fun but it plays very differently from the other factions, I'd suggest looking up a guide as they're a lot more comprehensive than I can be.

[Tricosis]

Originally posted by Slippery Jack:

Spam your monks often and early to cause destabalization in every province around you, I found being aggressive meant that I'd always have a few that were high level, even if some were assasinated. The hardest part is the start of the campaign, spam your superior peasants (especially the katana dudes), afterwards once you get your conquering ball rolling you'll be fine.

Ikko Ikki is a lot of fun but it plays very differently from the other factions, I'd suggest looking up a guide as they're a lot more comprehensive than I can be.

Thanks for your input! They sure is another experience than the usual clans, can't disagree with that.

Due to religious issues and the lack of metsuke, my economy will be too poor to have more than two stacks. One stack is forced to stick back and defend my west side, whilist the other expand trough the south. The problem is the fact that the stereotypical cheating AI on legendary will quickly bring 3 stacks of samurais in the early game. Normally when I play other clans, I'm having a good enough economy to be able to afford armies able to beat those, but as the Ikko Ikki, there is no chance in hell I'd beat them with only 1 stack. Expanding quickly only punishes you as you gain next to no extra income for each city you take due to religious issues, thus making their excelent early game units unviable as it forces me to expand slowly. I have heard many people say that you're supposed to spam your monk, but that seems undoable when as soon as I get my second monk at hand, the ai starts spamming me with level 3+ ninjas absoulutely slaughtering my monks. Once they are gone, I have no defense against the enemy agents. If I try to recruit another monk, he'll instantly be assasinated, and even if he survives and spot the ninja, he'll be extreamly unlikely to succeed.

I honestly still don't get it ...

[The Blind One]

I feel your pain bro, I've had to deal with the same nonsense as the Ikko Ikki and no I haven't finished my campaign yet. It's just brutal.

I'm on attempt 4 or something but I just gave up a few months ago when I got backstabbed on 3 sides simultaneously and got invaded with roughly 4 to 6 stacks every so often while I can barely field 3. You'd think the AI would be fighting its long time rival right? Nah they'll just send all their stacks your way instead! And once you beat their stack, you'll find that you can't even capitalize on your victory because another AI will eat up the AI you just beat because you can't expand like they do. So you're basically hand feeding the AI more AI's and allowing it to blob despite your sucesses. Extremely frustrating gameplay.

I'll have to try something new next time *sigh*.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Maybe you should focus the hattori to remove their ninja schools, and get some higher level ninjas for yourself. And don't forget the close trade route.
If you make adjacent provinces rebel to religion you can even gain some top tier monks, but their upkeep is huge for early game.

[Tricosis]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Maybe you should focus the hattori to remove their ninja schools, and get some higher level ninjas for yourself. And don't forget the close trade route.
If you make adjacent provinces rebel to religion you can even gain some top tier monks, but their upkeep is huge for early game.

Thanks for the tip, I'll give that a try!

[goka9696]

Ikko are not supposed to have friends.

They are literally a peasant rebellion.

All I can recommend is just spam your monks. Every time an enemy province revolts, you gain both it and all the units in it, provided that the rebels are victorious of course.

Ikko can easily steamroll if they get momentum going, but ninjas are incredibly dangerous, yes.

[MrPurple33]

Originally posted by goka9696:

Ikko are not supposed to have friends.

They are literally a peasant rebellion.

All I can recommend is just spam your monks. Every time an enemy province revolts, you gain both it and all the units in it, provided that the rebels are victorious of course.

Ikko can easily steamroll if they get momentum going, but ninjas are incredibly dangerous, yes.

Yep, Ikko Ikki are meant to be a Harder, Unique aspect of the game -- they are a Peasant Revolution Force, so naturally the Samurai and the Imperial Court would want to crush them

they Do get access to Ronin, but those are also outsiders, maybe criminals

they do get Monks, but those guys aren't really Buddist, they preach the Ikko Ikki religion, other Monks probably despise those guys

they most definitely DO NOT get Metsuke, who are an enforcer/overseer/special police force, those guys exist to hunt down Rebellious Peasant Scum

actualy surprised they get to have Ninja, while I'm sure they would have dealings and use the Ikki for their own ends, Ninja Clans are actually rigidly structured, and I'd think would have contempt for such rabble

even though I have downloaded the Ikko pack, I have yet to try It-- too many good Clans in the game to Play! -- have messed around with the Otomo, so I kinda understand the slowness of having to expand your Religion along with your forces (again Otomo are also meant to be a Harder, but different option) I'm much better at using Buddist Monks to clamp down and stop Christian and Ikko Influence from spreading Into my Lands (I do really dig the Hattori- but they are harder to pull off as well)

the other reason I don't care much for the Ikko Is I Like to Play Uesugi (although I've never come close to getting ahead with them) just as I'm getting Ok with my defences and moves against those Damn Takeda (who are allied with the Damn Hojo 99% of the time) -- Here come those Ikko Scum to mess with my western borders, even If I crush their armies, I have to garrison troops in towns to quash their Ideas from spreading among my peasants, and use Monks to keep Buddhism strong

usually It's cheaper to just Crush the Ikko outright, but then I'm over-extendended, even If I try to Vassal some Lands, when I need those forces and resources to deal with those Damn Takeda and Hojo (who usually march Metsuke SQUADS thru Takeda Lands to mess with me)

Even If I debase my Honour and try to Ally as Uesugi with the Ikko, you'd think they would be eager to have any support from a Big Clan, but nope, those treacherous dogs either never want to ally, or on the few times they have, they turn on you like 2-3 turns Later, quicker than most other clans would betray you

So from a player standpoint, I don't Like the Ikko - from a historical, game-play standpoint, you're always going to have It Hard playing them, I'd say they're definely one of the hardest, If not the hardest clan to play -- Otomo get good position once you beat Shimazu, and you get all those guns, Hattori takes some doing, but you get to control the Kai Penninula and get all sneaky with Kishu and Ninja -- again, I haven't tried the Ikko yet, but I DO need to at some point--- my guess would be It's going to be really rough, and Involve rushing cheap troops, using rebellion and treachery to quickly gain territory and then hold it against angry Samurai wanting to behead my peasant hero-soldiers (Furious Samurai Voice:: WRONG they are treacherous dogs with no Honour! kill that deluded sympathiser Immediately!)

[goka9696]

Originally posted by MrPurple33:

Originally posted by goka9696:

Ikko are not supposed to have friends.

They are literally a peasant rebellion.

All I can recommend is just spam your monks. Every time an enemy province revolts, you gain both it and all the units in it, provided that the rebels are victorious of course.

Ikko can easily steamroll if they get momentum going, but ninjas are incredibly dangerous, yes.

Yep, Ikko Ikki are meant to be a Harder, Unique aspect of the game -- they are a Peasant Revolution Force, so naturally the Samurai and the Imperial Court would want to crush them

they Do get access to Ronin, but those are also outsiders, maybe criminals

they do get Monks, but those guys aren't really Buddist, they preach the Ikko Ikki religion, other Monks probably despise those guys

they most definitely DO NOT get Metsuke, who are an enforcer/overseer/special police force, those guys exist to hunt down Rebellious Peasant Scum

actualy surprised they get to have Ninja, while I'm sure they would have dealings and use the Ikki for their own ends, Ninja Clans are actually rigidly structured, and I'd think would have contempt for such rabble

even though I have downloaded the Ikko pack, I have yet to try It-- too many good Clans in the game to Play! -- have messed around with the Otomo, so I kinda understand the slowness of having to expand your Religion along with your forces (again Otomo are also meant to be a Harder, but different option) I'm much better at using Buddist Monks to clamp down and stop Christian and Ikko Influence from spreading Into my Lands (I do really dig the Hattori- but they are harder to pull off as well)

the other reason I don't care much for the Ikko Is I Like to Play Uesugi (although I've never come close to getting ahead with them) just as I'm getting Ok with my defences and moves against those Damn Takeda (who are allied with the Damn Hojo 99% of the time) -- Here come those Ikko Scum to mess with my western borders, even If I crush their armies, I have to garrison troops in towns to quash their Ideas from spreading among my peasants, and use Monks to keep Buddhism strong

usually It's cheaper to just Crush the Ikko outright, but then I'm over-extendended, even If I try to Vassal some Lands, when I need those forces and resources to deal with those Damn Takeda and Hojo (who usually march Metsuke SQUADS thru Takeda Lands to mess with me)

Even If I debase my Honour and try to Ally as Uesugi with the Ikko, you'd think they would be eager to have any support from a Big Clan, but nope, those treacherous dogs either never want to ally, or on the few times they have, they turn on you like 2-3 turns Later, quicker than most other clans would betray you

So from a player standpoint, I don't Like the Ikko - from a historical, game-play standpoint, you're always going to have It Hard playing them, I'd say they're definely one of the hardest, If not the hardest clan to play -- Otomo get good position once you beat Shimazu, and you get all those guns, Hattori takes some doing, but you get to control the Kai Penninula and get all sneaky with Kishu and Ninja -- again, I haven't tried the Ikko yet, but I DO need to at some point--- my guess would be It's going to be really rough, and Involve rushing cheap troops, using rebellion and treachery to quickly gain territory and then hold it against angry Samurai wanting to behead my peasant hero-soldiers (Furious Samurai Voice:: WRONG they are treacherous dogs with no Honour! kill that deluded sympathiser Immediately!)

I find Ikko both much more fun and much easier to play than Otomo. With Otomo it's just a slow slog, while with Ikko you can basically fight a war on multiple fronts. You don't even HAVE to go to war, really. The ikko monks are incredibly broken. While on hard and higher it's probably much harder, on normal and lower Ikko is actually an incredibly easy faction to play as after you find out that you don't even need to fight to win.

[Elitewrecker PT]

Otomo snowball so hard with growth. You can even go on low taxes for most of the time and still gain tons of money per turn.

[RustyRed]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

Otomo snowball so hard with growth. You can even go on low taxes for most of the time and still gain tons of money per turn.

This. Otomo and Shimazu are the most safe clans. I honestly don't know why people think diplomacy is "hard" with Otomo. Once you have all the trade nodes (which is easy to do), it doesn't matter if the other clan is hostile, they'll still pay you +10k just to trade with you.

[Ashina]

Originally posted by ts:

No input? Really?

just my Opinion.
The Ikko Ikki is more of a Full Militarized Clan, they have the best military in the entire game, while having weaker economy.

You also say that you need 2 Full stack to defend both sides of your province, this is not true, the Ikko Ikki Loan Swords Ashigaru is one of the most Powerful unit in the early game, just put 5 of them in a province, and you could win some sieges against a full stack armies, you just need to train on how to use them in sieges(I mostly sally them out with 1 Yari Ashigaru, routing them enemy on one side while baiting the enemy units and destroy it one by one), also remember that 50 Upkeep cost.

also you can go insane and put your taxes to minimal, it will only make -1 Public order instead of -4, which will help you when expanding, if you don't want to use your monks into a risky rebellion, just put them in provinces that still have small Ikko Ikki faith.

[THEDOSSBOSS]

Best military in the game? Do you even Oda?

[Ashina]

Originally posted by THEDOSSBOSS:

Best military in the game? Do you even Oda?

The Oda is probably the best in War time economy, you can literally have 3 stack of Ashigaru,while other clan struggles with 2 Stacks.

Their Cheaper Ashigaru is a Economic bonus, according to Age of Empires 2 Community(The Goths Cheaper Infantry is sometimes said to be a Economic Bonus, instead of Military).

I think the reason I make the Ikko Ikki has the best Military is probably because of that Loan sword Ashigaru unit, which will add Power in early game battle, and Cheap Defense unit in late game.

But
Oda > Ikko Ikki Forever

[Sevrojin]

ikko ikki dont need armys just use rebellion monks. ikko ikki monk rebellion not only gives you the province you claim the rebel army as your own. ikko ikki are insanely op