Question on Ashigaru Vs. Samurai...

[TLM]

Is it possible to win if you outnumber the enemy (who has an army made up of only samurai, but has less men than you) but only have ashigaru? I'm asking this because I need some help/advice...

[Flashback]

Yes?

Provided your ashigaru dont break

[TLM]

Any tips on how the ashigaru won't break? I put my general close to them but then, the enemy's archers start firing down on my general. Tips (on both how to beat the samurai and morale) would be appreciated...

By the way, this is a siege...

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by master66241cubs:

Any tips on how the ashigaru won't break? I put my general close to them but then, the enemy's archers start firing down on my general. Tips (on both how to beat the samurai and morale) would be appreciated...

By the way, this is a siege...

Large numbers of ashigaru can definitely beat samurai, especially with flanking attacks. Sieges are more problematic, because of the limited options for movement. That's the whole purpose of forts though, to help nullify numerical advantage.

My advice would be, assuming you are trying to assault the fort, to simply not assault. Wait for the fort to starve out, or for them to sally out. If the enemy samurai sally, you stand a much greater chance of beating them with your larger numbers of ashigaru in the field versus trying to scale the walls. You'll lose a hell of a lot less men too: even if you did win the fort assault, it will be very costly if the enemy has a full stack of samurai.

As to keeping ashigaru from breaking:

For yari ashigaru, you want to ensure they are in spearwall whenever they have to fight.

For bow ashigaru, you need to make sure that they are always near friendly melee troops that they can shelter behind if they have to.

For both yari and bows, they need to have friendly troops in numbers nearby to keep morale up. Isolated detachments of 1 or 2 ashigaru can rout very quickly.

When you setup yari ashigaru in a battle line, make sure the ends of each unit in the line abut the adjacent unit tightly.

Always keep a reserve to the rear of the line, at fairly close distance. Friendly troops behind boost the morale of the troops in front of them. The reserve is also important so you can quickly plug a hole in the line if one of the ashigaru is wavering. This will help prevent "chain routs," where the whole line starts wavering.

Generals within influence distance help keep ashigaru steady to a huge degree. Keep your generals moving up and down the lines: this lets all the ashigaru keep their morale higher, and also makes the general into less of a target.

From time to time, use the general's "Rally" ability. This ability doesn't just need to be used for rallying routing units; it also keeps morale high for steady units.

If you have large amounts of yari ashigaru, and can spare the men while still keeping frontage, form them into deeper blocks if they are going to be facing strong enemies.

Usually, the regular 4 to 6 ranks works fine, especially if you are in spearwall, in guard mode, and on good ground. Always put yari ashigaru on the best ground you can, hills and slopes; protect their flanks with cliffs, gorges, buildings, etc.

At the campaign level, recruit ashigaru from provinces with religious tradituons, so they have more resolve.

Develop armorers and smiths so they have better equipment. The "encampment" chain will allow you to train them with higher melee skills.

Generals can develop their personal traits to give big boosts to morale. The best one is the "Stand and Fight!" ability.

Keep ashigaru battle experience by merging depleted units. It's usually better to merge three battle depleted ashigaru into one full strength unit of say 3 xp than to have three units of 0 xp.

Have ashigaru come in as reinforcing stacks to your main stack of a mixed samurai-ashigaru army, then use this stack as one big hammer to hit the enemy flank or rear while your main army holds the line. This will allow the reinforcing ashigaru to get many kills and experience, thus improving their morale, without suffering big losses.

Fight defensively whenever possible, even if you are on the strategic offense. It's much easier to use ashigaru to defend a bridge, river crossing or mountain defile than it is to assault over or through these. Put them in spearwall and let the enemy come to you, pin them, then launch a surprise attack from the flank or rear with hidden troops.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Yeah, I made the mistakes of not keeping the ashigaru in formation a few times. Yari wall is recommened, block formation at a minimum. If you're blobbed, the stand no chance, even if youre not fighitng katanas.

[Teutonic Ritterin]

Originally posted by master66241cubs:

Is it possible to win if you outnumber the enemy (who has an army made up of only samurai, but has less men than you) but only have ashigaru? I'm asking this because I need some help/advice...

Ashigaru can win against Samurai in Open Battle,they can win not only because of their sheer number,but remember that Yari Ashigaru in Yari Wall can beat Yari Samurai,and once they hold up to 3 Naginata Samurai.
There's also a Heroic Ashigaru Retainers that gives +1 Morale to ashigaru.

[TLM]

I just read it carefully, the enemy had 5000 men and I only have 3000. Does that change anything much?


Thanks for all the tips. I really needed it!

[EoNightcore]

Originally posted by master66241cubs:

I just read it carefully, the enemy had 5000 men and I only have 3000. Does that change anything much?


Thanks for all the tips. I really needed it!

You're ♥♥♥♥♥♥ unless you can eliminate the enemy numerical advantage. Find a chokepoint or deploy your men near the corner of the battle map to prevent the enemy from using their superior numbers to flank you. It's a cheap tactic, but sometimes Survival trumps Honor.

If you haven't been engaged yet, camp by a bridge or river crossing for a natural chokepoint.

[Zonda Zecarius]

I assume this is on campaign: In which case, siege battles shouldn't be that impossible. If you keep your units in the top layer/tier of the castle (where the tenshu is), your units wont break/shatter and route.
Use this to your advantage and use yari wall to help give your yari ash a better chance in melee fight, and use your generals inspire abilities on whatever areas need it the most.
Usually sieges in campaign end up being "outlast your opponent's morale".

[Krieger Von Klapper]

Wait till they sally out, then Spearwall, corner of the map, best still if possible, on an elevated position. You shouldn't have picked a fight that you can't at least defend comfortably. Do you have archers? It'll help you either way defensively and offensively. Because, if they have, their archers can destroy your defensive positions in detail... easily. In any case, it's a bad idea in the first place, especially when you're outnumbered by troops that outclassed yours.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Minamoto no Yoshitsune:

Wait till they sally out, then Spearwall, corner of the map, best still if possible, on an elevated position. You shouldn't have picked a fight that you can't at least defend comfortably. Do you have archers? It'll help you either way defensively and offensively. Because, if they have, their archers can destroy your defensive positions in detail... easily. In any case, it's a bad idea in the first place, especially when you're outnumbered by troops that outclassed yours.

Yeah, I thought he said he outnumbered them.

But if it's the other way around, and they have full samurai and he's got full ashigaru...lol I don't know.

Maybe your best option is to retreat to a friendly province, or hell even make peace, so you can reaasess.

[Krieger Von Klapper]

Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:

Originally posted by Minamoto no Yoshitsune:

Wait till they sally out, then Spearwall, corner of the map, best still if possible, on an elevated position. You shouldn't have picked a fight that you can't at least defend comfortably. Do you have archers? It'll help you either way defensively and offensively. Because, if they have, their archers can destroy your defensive positions in detail... easily. In any case, it's a bad idea in the first place, especially when you're outnumbered by troops that outclassed yours.

Yeah, I thought he said he outnumbered them.

But if it's the other way around, and they have full samurai and he's got full ashigaru...lol I don't know.

Maybe your best option is to retreat to a friendly province, or hell even make peace, so you can reaasess.

Yeah... Personally, my ashigaru stacks are nothing more than to feed my need for variety to spice up the game. And in my opinion, if you can't use Ashigaru numbers and Spearwalls to bear in the battle, then it's not really much of a use unless you stack it with an awful lot of Legendary dojos, Encampment and Smithing bonuses in a certain province. Which I did, making them more than a match for regular Yari Samurais without any upgrades.

In that case, master66241cubs, you should retreat and fight another day unless you can find a choke point on campaign map and entice them to waste great units and numbers on it with spearwalls. Just don't forget to support them with archers though. Ashigaru on spearwalls are like glass cannon to enemy archers. I reccommend at least 4 units of Bow monks for every stacks regardless..... If you are able to recruit them. If not, the least you can do is 4 ashigaru archers.

[TLM]

Thanks for all the tips guys....I learned a lot.... :)

But anyways, I created a new conquest. I knew I couldn't win this one because as a beginner, I don't think I can even stand a chance against an enemywho has 20 provinces while I only have 5. Even if I combine all my land with my allies, we would still be very weak.

[Zonda Zecarius]

for campaigns, I feel like you sorta have to be fast in acting at the start, or at least, when I played Date it was either attack the enemy provinces as fast as possible, or be stuck with an inferior army against the takeda, uesugi or whatever claims most of the land south of you.

[EoNightcore]

Originally posted by master66241cubs:

Thanks for all the tips guys....I learned a lot.... :)

But anyways, I created a new conquest. I knew I couldn't win this one because as a beginner, I don't think I can even stand a chance against an enemywho has 20 provinces while I only have 5. Even if I combine all my land with my allies, we would still be very weak.

For a beginner, I recommend playing Shimazu.

Pros
+ All you really need to do is conquer your home island of Kyushu (and maybe that of Shikoku plus small island which are both east of Kyushu) and than camp while you stack up research and building upgrades.
+ Easy access to Trade Nodes, some of which are required to reach the legendary tier level of certain dojos and buildings.
+ Crafts and Smiths! Crafts means more accurate archers, Smiths means soldiers with better armor or better weapons.
+ Easy to defend, just pop a boat down in every port to discourage naval invasions.
+ Superior Katana Samurai
+ More loyal generals
+ One path of general expansion

Cons
- Quite far away from Kyoto
- Katana Samurai are weak to cavalry charges
- Might possibly have to contend with a mainland clan for territory in northern Kyushu.
- Little challenge to your might later in the game due to well-defended territory


+/- Christians (Otomo clan) inhabit the island. Adopting their religion is a good way to piss everyone off, but also a good way to learn how the religious mechanics work.

[Eat3n]

I'm surprised no one mentioned that magically delicious Oda clan. Your Ahigaru get bonuses, with the right buildings you can recruit Oda long yari, and with an Encampment you can get ashigaru even cheaper, AND you can build either the armoury or the dojo and get either armor or melee boosts. With all that together you can assemble an ashigaru army that is cheap and pretty good to the point that they can go, reasonably, toe-to-toe with samurais.