Anyone else find Shogun 2 to be the most difficult Total War game?

[Gerfreckle]

I certainly do, and it's kind of frustrating since there's so much I love about the game - the gorgeous graphics, the beautiful soundtrack, the elegant UI, etc. But I find the difficulty of the campaign (not necessarily the battles, though) to be really punishingly difficult. Right off the bat you start off - in whichever faction - with an incredibly low income and basically no food surplus, so it takes a long time to suffiently build up your army and settlements. And because all of the factions are more or less the exact same in terms of their units, their strength, etc. it seems expansion is pretty difficult and things can go very wrong very quickly. I also find the AI diplomacy to be kind of terrible and unfair. Like, most of them will refuse even a simple trade agreement that is benefical to all of us for seemingly no reason, and I don't think I've ever had more than two allies at once, since everyone seems to hate or at least dislike me for no reason.

I just find the campaign an absolute tedious and unfair slog to get through, and I've never made it more than 70 or so turns in.

[Enigmatic]

I still have not beaten the Shogun two campaign, I only try harder difficulties. However Fall of Samuri was easier it seemed, first play through I managed to do it traditionally. Which you think would be more difficult.

You need to maximize your agent use, and on the harder difficulties especially legendary your army placement has to be spot on or else when you try to actually move forward and compleate provinces you will probably get hit somewhere else with a bigger army.

[Teutonic Ritterin]

Gerfreckle님이 먼저 게시:

I certainly do, and it's kind of frustrating since there's so much I love about the game - the gorgeous graphics, the beautiful soundtrack, the elegant UI, etc. But I find the difficulty of the campaign (not necessarily the battles, though) to be really punishingly difficult. Right off the bat you start off - in whichever faction - with an incredibly low income and basically no food surplus, so it takes a long time to suffiently build up your army and settlements. And because all of the factions are more or less the exact same in terms of their units, their strength, etc. it seems expansion is pretty difficult and things can go very wrong very quickly. I also find the AI diplomacy to be kind of terrible and unfair. Like, most of them will refuse even a simple trade agreement that is benefical to all of us for seemingly no reason, and I don't think I've ever had more than two allies at once, since everyone seems to hate or at least dislike me for no reason.

I just find the campaign an absolute tedious and unfair slog to get through, and I've never made it more than 70 or so turns in.

Then Become Hitler,and use Bow Cavalry Rush.
Steps:
1. Build up your Economy
-Quickly make peace with any faction you don't want to have war with
-Research Chi arts,and go for terrace farming
-When you done your first chi art,build markets in every province,but you can only upgrade a maximum of 5 of them,and make sure that upgraded market has a permanent metsuke in it.
-Metsuke increase Tax Rates,and it will increase more with "Town Watching" Skill,at some point in the campaign,my metsuke extort the province of Owari with 75% Tax rate,even though my Tax rate is "Minimal" (10% by Default),while keeping the -1 Unhappiness,instead of -4 from Normal Taxes.
-in peace time,lower your taxes.You don't need too much money in peace time,and also disband any units you think isn't worth it,for example that Bow Ashigaru garrisoned in the middle of a heavilly garrisoned province.
-a Level 2 or 3 Castle is more than enough,just build a Market,Encampment(Upgrade it to Accuracy,or Melee Attack,so it will give your defending bow ashigaru a better chance of defending the castle),and a Religious Building(if religion is a problem,or you're christian)
-Trade with everyone,even if you don't have any resources,since Trade also shares Tariff,each Tariff are probably just 100 Free Koku that will increase each turn,and sometimes the more resources you have the larger the tariff,but the Uesugi has +5% more Trade Tariff income,and Pirate den will increase tariff income further.

2. Defend your Property
-Ashigaru are cheap,and can be quickly deployed,unlike Militia class units in Total War Game,this Unit is "Not" a Militia Class,they're the "Regular" Class,While Samurai are the "Elite" Class,basically,if you want to defend your borders,train a good amount of ashigaru,they can't win against samurai,but their numbers is their selling point in early game,and a lot of upgrades will make them like Early Samurai,with Cheap Cost.
-Picking the right place for Military base,provinces with blacksmith,Horses,Bow Maker is the simple choice for Military base,don't build market in those base,just build any dojo you want to have.

3. Prepare for Blitzkrieg
-Cavalry Force are expensive,and sometimes not worth it,but if you do have the resources,just spam Bow Cavalry,and train a full stack of 19 of them with a general when you can,while your ashigaru keep the enemy at bay,your Cavalry are Mobile(They have 20 Movement point in the campaign map,infantry has 15,and Siege units has 12)only use your cavalry to attack the enemy,or relive a siege.
-The Art Todofuken decrese the Upkeep cost for units by -5% ,it might sound small,but it can save your pocket if you want to have a lot of samurai,since the samurai rather large upkeep,they will get more cut in their upkeep,if you don't get it,a samurai with 150 upkeep turn into 143 upkeep (Free 7 Koku),while ashigaru with 75 Upkeep turn into 71 Upkeep (Free 4 Koku),and it will impact greatly for Cavalry with 200 upkeep,will turn 190 Upkeep,thus saving 100 koku per 10 Cavalry.
-There's 2 kind of Wives that affect armies,the Greedy wive,and the not Greedy wive.
The Greedy wive increase your army upkeep by +5% ,and also gives +1 Morale,a General with this wife must have Ashigaru core armies,since the +5% upkeep is small for ashigaru,while +1 Morale is a Massive boost for ashigaru.
The Non Greedy wife does the opposite,and thus that general will need samurai armies,since -1 Morale is just a small thing for samurai,and combined with Todofuken the upkeep reduction will decrese to -10%.

4. Picking the General Skill
-Rank 1
Go For Lv2 Strategist,it increase Campaign movement speed.
-Rank 2
Finish the Strategist to lv3,and pick either Poet(Faster Military Research),Cavalry Commander(Charge Bonus for Cavalry),or stealthy (a High risk,since your general will unlock the night attack when this skill is level 3)
-Rank 3
Go For the Infantry Commander if your general is using mostly infantry,and if your general is going for Cavalry,max out that Cavalry Commander,the same goes with Poet,and Stealthy.
-Never go for Combat Skill
it's worthless to invest on that,since the bonus are just +1 +2 +3 for your general unit,not for the entire army,but if you want it,you can maxed out their combat skill,and turning them into Tadakatsu Honda,but the unit will disband if the general is killed,even when there's still 39 Men in that unit.

5. Keeping newly taken Provinces
-Never Loot.
-Extempt it from taxes.
-move some units that in the previous castle that feels save,or never gonna be attacked.

6. Diplomacy
-in early game,diplomacy is easy,since both your Military,and Economy is Moderate.
-The larger your force the more likely the AI will refuse your offer.
-The larger your ecnomy the more likely the AI will ask for money in each offer.

7. Mods
-if this is too long to Read/ tl;dr,you can download mods from the workshop.
if you're insterested,here's the mod that I made long ago that increase Economy in all Shogun 2 games:
-Twice Technology Effects
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=847950073
-Twice Character Skill Effects
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=847941550
-Faster Research
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=830679377
-Faster Economy in all Games
-Shogun
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=818008166
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=818008131
-RoTS
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=817994726
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=818008093
-FoTS
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=818007960
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=817994432

-I don't know why I make this mod
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=757990901

[ikyu828]

i forgot to add
if u r playing as catholic n have lots of income, use ur priests to create rebellions everywhere
XD

[Mile pro Libertate]

Gerfreckle님이 먼저 게시:

I certainly do, and it's kind of frustrating since there's so much I love about the game - the gorgeous graphics, the beautiful soundtrack, the elegant UI, etc. But I find the difficulty of the campaign (not necessarily the battles, though) to be really punishingly difficult. Right off the bat you start off - in whichever faction - with an incredibly low income and basically no food surplus, so it takes a long time to suffiently build up your army and settlements. And because all of the factions are more or less the exact same in terms of their units, their strength, etc. it seems expansion is pretty difficult and things can go very wrong very quickly. I also find the AI diplomacy to be kind of terrible and unfair. Like, most of them will refuse even a simple trade agreement that is benefical to all of us for seemingly no reason, and I don't think I've ever had more than two allies at once, since everyone seems to hate or at least dislike me for no reason.

I just find the campaign an absolute tedious and unfair slog to get through, and I've never made it more than 70 or so turns in.

I like to think of it in terms of distinguishing between "challenging" and "unforgiving" aspects of gameplay.

The recent historically based games, Attila and Age of Charlemagne (AoC), can both be just as challenging, if not more so in some cases, than Shogun.

But what I have noticed is that if you make a colossal mistake in your campaign in Attila or AoC, there is almost always a way to stabilize the resulting chaotic situation and get back on track.

In Shogun, it is still possible to do this too, but with a much, much lower success rate. So I say it is more "unforgiving."

To win Shogun, your campaign game has to more or less be consistently good from turn 1 till the end. In Attila, you can fall behind other factions, but if you keep your head down, you'll survive.

Part of this, imo, is owing to the fact that cultural and religious factors play a larger role in the other games than they do in Shogun.

Attila and AoC also have numerous improvements to diplomacy, where factions will not destroy you just because they can: in many cases, two factions in Attila can exist side by side for many years even if one is much more powerful than another.

In Shogun, as soon as you are seen as weak, a nearby faction will try to take you out, just because it can take you out.

You also have tools and aspects in Attila and AoC that you don't have in Shogun, like setting war targets, option to have a defensive alliance (in Shogun all alliances are equivalent to "military alliance" in Attila), non aggression pacts, much more female relatives to marry off for diplomacy, diplomacy system keeps track of a wider variety of past actions, and the reliability and aggressiveness of faction is determined by their leader.

You also have the fact that pretty much all of the factions start at war, or with a history of bad relations, with either the Western or Eastern Empires.

This means that in Attila at least, you have two broad camps your faction will find itself in, pro or anti Roman.

In AoC this gets more nuanced but is still there: factions are either on better or lesser terms with the Franks; better or lesser terms with the Umayyads.

In Shogun though, this is lacking. Any single clan is essentially against the interests of every other clan.

Another aspect I've seen is that rebels and separatists are more common in Attila and AoC. In Shogun the player basically has to make these rebellions happen, but in the other two games even the AI seems to have trouble keeping public order placated in every region.

You can add to this the emerging factions like Gaul, Britain, or Dacia in Attila, or the Croats and Slavs in AoC, all of which there is no equivalent in Shogun.

These types of emergent powers make the game easier in some ways, because they challenge AI factions who are becoming hegemons, and they can be used as buffer states or as an enemy-of-my-enemy type of thing to buff relations.

And of course, as others have said, there is no Realm Divide in the other games.

Attila and AoC recognize the player simply for surviving and growing imperium, and allies' regions count in the tally needed for the victory conditions. In Shogun you either become the master of the islands, or nothing else matters.

In Attila you also have the "chapters" in the background narrative, with objectives, so every few years you get anywhere from 4,000 to 9,000 money in your treasury. There are also many "dilemmas" that will give money, or you have the option to make money from the situation.

Shogun on the other hand has no chapter and bonus objectives, and dilemmas are either to stave off a potential problem or crisis event, or to get a buff to recruitment experience or research, not money.

Overall, I think Attila and AoC simply have more realistic options and mechanics for dealing with other factions, diplomacy wise, and it results in less of a manic "kill or be killed" atmosphere than we see in Shogun.

Attila/AoC can be just as much if not more challenging than Shogun, but you are not on this precipice where a couple of mistakes result in your faction being wiped off the face of the earth.

I don't even factor the older games into the discussion becuse not only were the mechanics much more simplistic, but the AI was just too passive to pose a credible player threat, regardless of what the player did or didn't do in diplomacy or on the battlefield.

[Wolf]

I thought Shogun 2 was pretty difficult. Yeah I guess more than Rome 2 (vanilla). I don't know why... can't back it up, just my opinion

[rory.b.p]

Mile pro Libertate님이 먼저 게시:

Gerfreckle님이 먼저 게시:

I certainly do, and it's kind of frustrating since there's so much I love about the game - the gorgeous graphics, the beautiful soundtrack, the elegant UI, etc. But I find the difficulty of the campaign (not necessarily the battles, though) to be really punishingly difficult. Right off the bat you start off - in whichever faction - with an incredibly low income and basically no food surplus, so it takes a long time to suffiently build up your army and settlements. And because all of the factions are more or less the exact same in terms of their units, their strength, etc. it seems expansion is pretty difficult and things can go very wrong very quickly. I also find the AI diplomacy to be kind of terrible and unfair. Like, most of them will refuse even a simple trade agreement that is benefical to all of us for seemingly no reason, and I don't think I've ever had more than two allies at once, since everyone seems to hate or at least dislike me for no reason.

I just find the campaign an absolute tedious and unfair slog to get through, and I've never made it more than 70 or so turns in.

I like to think of it in terms of distinguishing between "challenging" and "unforgiving" aspects of gameplay.

The recent historically based games, Attila and Age of Charlemagne (AoC), can both be just as challenging, if not more so in some cases, than Shogun.

But what I have noticed is that if you make a colossal mistake in your campaign in Attila or AoC, there is almost always a way to stabilize the resulting chaotic situation and get back on track.

In Shogun, it is still possible to do this too, but with a much, much lower success rate. So I say it is more "unforgiving."

To win Shogun, your campaign game has to more or less be consistently good from turn 1 till the end. In Attila, you can fall behind other factions, but if you keep your head down, you'll survive.

Part of this, imo, is owing to the fact that cultural and religious factors play a larger role in the other games than they do in Shogun.

Attila and AoC also have numerous improvements to diplomacy, where factions will not destroy you just because they can: in many cases, two factions in Attila can exist side by side for many years even if one is much more powerful than another.

In Shogun, as soon as you are seen as weak, a nearby faction will try to take you out, just because it can take you out.

You also have tools and aspects in Attila and AoC that you don't have in Shogun, like setting war targets, option to have a defensive alliance (in Shogun all alliances are equivalent to "military alliance" in Attila), non aggression pacts, much more female relatives to marry off for diplomacy, diplomacy system keeps track of a wider variety of past actions, and the reliability and aggressiveness of faction is determined by their leader.

You also have the fact that pretty much all of the factions start at war, or with a history of bad relations, with either the Western or Eastern Empires.

This means that in Attila at least, you have two broad camps your faction will find itself in, pro or anti Roman.

In AoC this gets more nuanced but is still there: factions are either on better or lesser terms with the Franks; better or lesser terms with the Umayyads.

In Shogun though, this is lacking. Any single clan is essentially against the interests of every other clan.

Another aspect I've seen is that rebels and separatists are more common in Attila and AoC. In Shogun the player basically has to make these rebellions happen, but in the other two games even the AI seems to have trouble keeping public order placated in every region.

You can add to this the emerging factions like Gaul, Britain, or Dacia in Attila, or the Croats and Slavs in AoC, all of which there is no equivalent in Shogun.

These types of emergent powers make the game easier in some ways, because they challenge AI factions who are becoming hegemons, and they can be used as buffer states or as an enemy-of-my-enemy type of thing to buff relations.

And of course, as others have said, there is no Realm Divide in the other games.

Attila and AoC recognize the player simply for surviving and growing imperium, and allies' regions count in the tally needed for the victory conditions. In Shogun you either become the master of the islands, or nothing else matters.

In Attila you also have the "chapters" in the background narrative, with objectives, so every few years you get anywhere from 4,000 to 9,000 money in your treasury. There are also many "dilemmas" that will give money, or you have the option to make money from the situation.

Shogun on the other hand has no chapter and bonus objectives, and dilemmas are either to stave off a potential problem or crisis event, or to get a buff to recruitment experience or research, not money.

Overall, I think Attila and AoC simply have more realistic options and mechanics for dealing with other factions, diplomacy wise, and it results in less of a manic "kill or be killed" atmosphere than we see in Shogun.

Attila/AoC can be just as much if not more challenging than Shogun, but you are not on this precipice where a couple of mistakes result in your faction being wiped off the face of the earth.

I don't even factor the older games into the discussion becuse not only were the mechanics much more simplistic, but the AI was just too passive to pose a credible player threat, regardless of what the player did or didn't do in diplomacy or on the battlefield.

Rome BI is an older game and it is probably the most difficult TW, Attilla was basically a toned down version, balancing unrest in Rome BI is no joke and there is always a chance that an area with -1 unhappiness could suddenly spawn 7 full hoard stacks.. these arent your run of the mill standard TW rebels they got 7 full hoard stacks of med to high tier troops and cavalry... and bow cavalry... and maybe 2 of them would siege the city they spawned on and the rest would spread.... spreading unrest in other provinces which would in turn always have the chance of spawning another Hoard of full stacks.

Rome BI is the only TW game I have played (I haven't played Warhammer) where you never get to the point where you feel like from this point on it is going to be a steamroll victory.. it occurs in pretty much every other TW game even in legendary at certain points you just feel the tide has turned and now it will be just going through the motions.
Rome BI doesn't really ever let you reach this point because of the Hoard mechanic in that game (its different to the one in Attilla).
Also the western Roman Empire and the Goths are probably two of my favourite faction playthroughs in any TW game.... the Western Roman Empire is huge but from turn one you are playing damage control, you can try to be a good ruler and cling to your huge empire with revolts within and externally or you can be a pragmatic bastard and deliberatly incite the revolts earlier so you can massacre the revolting factions before the enemy outside has a chance to move.. it is epic and plays out awesome whichever route you take.

As for the Goths well they start with a massive hoard of huns at the door... literally your main city with a meagre amount of troops starts out with 3-4 full stack hun hoards ready to strike on turn one.... and if you manage to defeat them in what can really only be a heroic victory it really doesn't matter as another Hun hoard tends to pop up bigger and stronger a few turns down the line.....
I remember in one campaign I had fought a bloody campaign vs the Huns and the eastern roman empire... I had taken constaninople but couldn't supress the unhappiness in time.... suddenly 2 massive Ostrogoth Hoards appeared within 1 turn of each other in two different provinces, constantinople and the one north of it... good times good times.
You can literally go from conquering army to besieged crumbling empire in a turn with ease because of the Hoard mechanic and millitarily there isn't a TW game as punishing.

[Mile pro Libertate]

I guess I forgot about the spawning hordes in BI...lol was it really that huge? 😄

Maybe I should edit my post then.

[Teutonic Ritterin]

Mile pro Libertate님이 먼저 게시:

I guess I forgot about the spawning hordes in BI...lol was it really that huge? 😄

Maybe I should edit my post then.

I still had to say,Playing Barbarian Invasion on Legendary with Roman Empires is only for players who completed all legendary difficulty campaign in all Total War Games.

But in this discussion this guy is ranting about the Economy,Armies,and Diplomacy.
perhaps from what I've heard and done,quickly capture at least 4 province in the start,consider your food production province,and military production province.
Either this guys is using too much samurai,or unlucky,army upkeep is not a big problem,except if you're the Hattori.

Now for diplomacy,I can tell a tip.
in the diplomacy,it can show Military,and Economic power.
The higher your military power is,the more likely the AI will reject your offers.
The higher your economic power is,the more likely the AI will ask for money,even for a tiny Offers.
at the early game,well if you feel safe,disband your army,and it will turn your military power to either Weak or Feeble,the weaker you're,the more likely the AI will accept your offers.
in the late game,if you does your economy well,you can just slap the AI with 50.000 Koku for Peace,his son,Trade,Vassal,and Infinite Military Access.

[TGG Gosling]

Attila wipes the floor with it.

[shiggies713]

Viktoriya Ivanovna Serebryakov님이 먼저 게시:

Now for diplomacy,I can tell a tip.
in the diplomacy,it can show Military,and Economic power.
The higher your military power is,the more likely the AI will reject your offers.
The higher your economic power is,the more likely the AI will ask for money,even for a tiny Offers.
at the early game,well if you feel safe,disband your army,and it will turn your military power to either Weak or Feeble,the weaker you're,the more likely the AI will accept your offers.
in the late game,if you does your economy well,you can just slap the AI with 50.000 Koku for Peace,his son,Trade,Vassal,and Infinite Military Access.

That is absolutely incorrect, sorry. The AI has never, ever just asked me for money in 1600+ hours of playing shogun 2, the vast majority in legendary campaign mode. Your tip about getting trade deals is not correct either.

Disbanding your army early game is a good way to lose. You'd be better off combining them all and taking a province. And again giving any money to any AI especially in the sum of 50,000 koku is just plain stupid. Only reason I have ever given AI even tiny sums of money is to get a trade deal or alliance, and even that is rare.

Honestly anyone reading this thread should completely ignore that advice, it is quite bad.

[Teutonic Ritterin]

shiggies713님이 먼저 게시:

Viktoriya Ivanovna Serebryakov님이 먼저 게시:

Now for diplomacy,I can tell a tip.
in the diplomacy,it can show Military,and Economic power.
The higher your military power is,the more likely the AI will reject your offers.
The higher your economic power is,the more likely the AI will ask for money,even for a tiny Offers.
at the early game,well if you feel safe,disband your army,and it will turn your military power to either Weak or Feeble,the weaker you're,the more likely the AI will accept your offers.
in the late game,if you does your economy well,you can just slap the AI with 50.000 Koku for Peace,his son,Trade,Vassal,and Infinite Military Access.

That is absolutely incorrect, sorry. The AI has never, ever just asked me for money in 1600+ hours of playing shogun 2, the vast majority in legendary campaign mode. Your tip about getting trade deals is not correct either.

Disbanding your army early game is a good way to lose. You'd be better off combining them all and taking a province. And again giving any money to any AI especially in the sum of 50,000 koku is just plain stupid. Only reason I have ever given AI even tiny sums of money is to get a trade deal or alliance, and even that is rare.

Honestly anyone reading this thread should completely ignore that advice, it is quite bad.

yeah,Ignore this advice,since I just remember that I'm using a personal mod that increase the likelyhood of a Trade Agreement,and make all the AI peacefull,so I can just spam matchlocks in turn 50,lol.

[easytarget]

19te Gosling님이 먼저 게시:

Attila wipes the floor with it.

Fun to enjoy how worthless definitive statements like this are.

[DanWon]

some clans are definitely harder than others. Easy clans are ones with a good defendable area. Otomo, Shimazu, Chosokabe, Date, and Hojo.

[easytarget]

this contribution definitely feels like it justfies resurrecting a thread from a year and a half ago...

[TGCMactar]

easytarget님이 먼저 게시:

this contribution definitely feels like it justfies resurrecting a thread from a year and a half ago...

what do you mean <3