[Possible Spoilers] Question about events and timeline of Technomancer vs Mars: War Logs

[elite403]

So, I've played until the part I talked to Scum about his escape from Camp 19.

Pretty much what he said was what I did in Mars: War Logs. However the part that bugged me was that Sean Mancer had Mary as an apprentice in the earlier game, and her story was that Sean had rescued her and then she has been with him ever since.

Looking at Technomancer's story itself, it could not have taken place much earlier than just mere MONTHS before Mars: War Logs. Sean is the protagonist's Master, just before being shipped out to the front. And then weeks/months later, Scum escaped with Roy's help.

I can't resolve where Mary fits into the timeline :p Anyone has more lore/story/reasons to enlighten me on this part?

[jakov_xiv]

Haven't played MWL, so I can't really answer your question, but I had this one conversation about Sean with some NPC in chapter 1, I think before Sean's departure to the front (it might've been Scott or master Connor, but I'm not sure), during which that NPC said Sean grew more bitter over last years with Abundance and it had something to do with strict marriage rules between technomancer, which somehow interfered with his romance. Maybe it was about Mary? Maybe Sean rescued her much before the events in Technomancer and took her to front with him? It was never stated in lore that technomancers could have only one apprentice at a time.

Anyway, I think we must approach this topic a bit loosely. I don't think even the devs have set all the events from both games on a strict timeline.

[treahnurb]

No, Mary has been rescued after Sean got send to the front. She was from Aurora and actually Sean found her after leaving Ophir. Mary herself tells the story to Roy. And because Sean rescued her, he has been send to the Camp were Roy in MWL is for punishment. Scum tells Zach even the story if you approach him in Mutant Valley. I believe there has to be some weeks between your last quests in Ophir and then Victor wanting to get his hands on you in Ophir.
Also it is stated that at least in Abundance Technomancer may have only one apprentice. Not sure who said it, I think Sean to Zach.

[elite403]

Yeah been some time since I played Mars War Logs so I'm hazy on the details, but Technomancer timeline seems to be very close to Mars War Logs one, so I can't place where Mary would appear in Sean's life :)

Also, Sean seems to be a much nicer guy in Technomancer than in Mars War Logs. At least here you can tell he's been battling his own demons, whereas in Mars War Logs all you see is just him being evil. I almost didn't realise this is the same Sean intially too.

[treahnurb]

Originally posted by FoxTwo:

Also, Sean seems to be a much nicer guy in Technomancer than in Mars War Logs. At least here you can tell he's been battling his own demons, whereas in Mars War Logs all you see is just him being evil. I almost didn't realise this is the same Sean intially too.

I don't think he's evil in MWL, but of course we see him from a complete different point of view. I'm sure they wanted to show that but couldn't well (we see only that one cut-scene where he kisses Mary on the forehead). We also know that he saved Mary, a Technomancer from Aurora, from death on the battlefield.

[Anax]

Originally posted by treahnurb:

We also know that he saved Mary, a Technomancer from Aurora, from death on the battlefield.

The way Mary says, "Are you going to sleep with me? Sean did," doesn't paint a very nice picture of the guy. Mary's obviously not all there, but she's pretty, and it seems that everyone and their grandma's dog have taken advantage of her.

I think that Sean was initially meant to be a typical evil bastard of a boss, but as he was brought back in the second game for nostalgia, they rewrote him into a good guy. I mean, the guy who tells you that killing people on Mars only makes us more alone, the guy who shows you the video that reveals Technomancers are mutants too, is the guy who'd casually kill ten mutants to get the one who punched a guard to confess? He's either more two-faced than a double-headed snake or his personality got retconned. I vote that it's the latter.

[RyouMura]

technomancer happens a little bit b4 Mars War Log, Sean hasn't come out to the Front yet.
and end a bit after MWL ends

[Anax]

Originally posted by RyouMura:

technomancer happens a little bit b4 Mars War Log, Sean hasn't come out to the Front yet.
and end a bit after MWL ends

Exactly. The timeline of Technomancer encompasses the timeline of MWL. The only problem is how fast the story of the second game feels compared to how long Mary seems to have been around Sean. Without concrete dates, though, it might simply an issue of things not being as they seem.

[kaay]

Originally posted by Anax:

Originally posted by treahnurb:

We also know that he saved Mary, a Technomancer from Aurora, from death on the battlefield.

The way Mary says, "Are you going to sleep with me? Sean did," doesn't paint a very nice picture of the guy. Mary's obviously not all there, but she's pretty, and it seems that everyone and their grandma's dog have taken advantage of her.

I think that Sean was initially meant to be a typical evil bastard of a boss, but as he was brought back in the second game for nostalgia, they rewrote him into a good guy. I mean, the guy who tells you that killing people on Mars only makes us more alone, the guy who shows you the video that reveals Technomancers are mutants too, is the guy who'd casually kill ten mutants to get the one who punched a guard to confess? He's either more two-faced than a double-headed snake or his personality got retconned. I vote that it's the latter.

Did you pay attention to the story in Mars War Logs?
The story is not handed to you, but with a minimum effort you can find out what happened.
Sean saved Mary on the battlefield, and while its not clear at what point during the atrocities she suffered he saved her, its quite clear she didnt get out of it with her mind intact.

Also you can find out that Sean at some point sacrificed his career in order to be with Mary.
The reason he was sent to oversee that god forsaken prison in the middle of nowhere, was a punishment for refusing to let go of Mary, and he did it knowing the consequences.
For the people who missed the info, the game also tries to clarify Sean's feelings towards Mary when she badly fails her mission, and despite Sean's reputation of "hating failure", he congratulates her for staying safe and kisses her, proving how much he really felt for her.

This deep relationship between Sean and Mary is further made clear later in the game when she argues why she refuses to dress properly. Its clear that she considers to always belong to Sean and to be broken by his death.
Basically the message she sends to Roy is that "you can have Sean's broken toy but never more than that"
If you pay attention to the details, the story of Sean and Mary in Mars War Logs is really intense and deeper than you might credit it for at first sight.

Sean did not take advantage of Mary, Roy did, as he did take advantage of everybody except Innocence.

Roy is a quintessential jerk and bad guy, but in a typical Graham Greene style, his humanity is somehow re-awakened by the relationship to the aptly named Innocence, again a very interesting relationship between an innocent kid that worships the villain Roy without understanding anything, and the villain Roy who is transformed by this relationship into something better.
The story in Mars War Logs is much much better than people credit it for.

[Anax]

Originally posted by kaay:

Did you pay attention to the story in Mars War Logs?

Yes.

Originally posted by kaay:

Sean saved Mary on the battlefield, and while its not clear at what point during the atrocities she suffered he saved her, its quite clear she didnt get out of it with her mind intact.

Yes.

Originally posted by kaay:

Also you can find out that Sean at some point sacrificed his career in order to be with Mary.
The reason he was sent to oversee that god forsaken prison in the middle of nowhere, was a punishment for refusing to let go of Mary, and he did it knowing the consequences.

Yes.

Originally posted by kaay:

[...] the game also tries to clarify Sean's feelings towards Mary when she badly fails her mission, and despite Sean's reputation of "hating failure", he congratulates her for staying safe and kisses her, proving how much he really felt for her.

Yes.

Originally posted by kaay:

This deep relationship between Sean and Mary is further made clear later in the game when she argues why she refuses to dress properly. Its clear that she considers to always belong to Sean and to be broken by his death.
Basically the message she sends to Roy is that "you can have Sean's broken toy but never more than that"

I disagree.

She talks about sex as a form of payment and the way she says, "Are you going to sleep with me? Sean did," is as unromantic as possible. Maybe Sean did care for her, maybe he even loved her, but she seems so out of it that I'd call it statutory <legal term Steam feels the need to censor>.

I don't remember exactly what she said about her clothes, but if you choose to be patient with her during the romance quest, she eventually wants to have sex with Roy because she actually likes him and wants it. It also seems she's never felt that way before. Of course, player choices have a degree of influence on how the story plays out and how the characters come off.

The most jarring difference between MWL Sean and Sean Mancer in my eyes is his attitude towards life. In Technomancer he tells Zach not to kill and he knows that technomancers are mutants, and yet he'd casually kill ten mutants just to get to the one who punched the guard? He tells Roy he has the power to stop him forever and grins hungrily as if wanting to? That's not Matt Mercer's Sean Mancer. Not to me, anyway.

Originally posted by kaay:

Sean did not take advantage of Mary, Roy did, as he did take advantage of everybody except Innocence. Roy is a quintessential jerk and bad guy [...]

Hashtag NotMyRoy. I went with a typical Hollywood movie main character and always chose the good guy answers, finished every quest with the best possible outcome, and didn't kill anybody I could avoid killing.

Originally posted by kaay:

The story in Mars War Logs is much much better than people credit it for.

I haven't checked what people said about it. I played Bound by Flame, enjoyed both story and gameplay, and set out to play all Spiders games :)

[treahnurb]

Interesting arguments you two have there, I won't know who would be right. But I guess player influence plays a big role there. Cause I didn't romance Mary (honestly I stayed away as far as i could from this crazy girl) I would rather agree to kaay, that she was in love with Sean in some way. It's also possible that Sean went worse in MWL, 'cause he kinda got broken in Technomancer.
But there's one thing thats true, though:

Originally posted by Anax:

The most jarring difference between MWL Sean and Sean Mancer in my eyes is his attitude towards life. In Technomancer he tells Zach not to kill and he knows that technomancers are mutants, and yet he'd casually kill ten mutants just to get to the one who punched the guard? He tells Roy he has the power to stop him forever and grins hungrily as if wanting to? That's not Matt Mercer's Sean Mancer. Not to me, anyway.

But maybe his view on that changed while he was at war. Because war can change people. A lot.

[kaay]

Originally posted by Anax:

Originally posted by kaay:

This deep relationship between Sean and Mary is further made clear later in the game when she argues why she refuses to dress properly. Its clear that she considers to always belong to Sean and to be broken by his death.
Basically the message she sends to Roy is that "you can have Sean's broken toy but never more than that"

I disagree.

She talks about sex as a form of payment and the way she says, "Are you going to sleep with me? Sean did," is as unromantic as possible. Maybe Sean did care for her, maybe he even loved her, but she seems so out of it that I'd call it statutory <legal term Steam feels the need to censor>.

I don't remember exactly what she said about her clothes, but if you choose to be patient with her during the romance quest, she eventually wants to have sex with Roy because she actually likes him and wants it. It also seems she's never felt that way before. Of course, player choices have a degree of influence on how the story plays out and how the characters come off.

Again, the story in MWL is not explicit, its implicit, you have to deduct it from the context.
Like the reaction Mary had when Sean was killed, that was love.
Also the fact that she wanted to exact revenge and kill Roy even if it cost her life, she went so far that she overloaded and almost killed herself. These facts are inconsistent with the assumption that she was used or abused or statutory r*ped by Sean.
When Roy finds her, her mind is screwed up by several events, like the gang r*pe event from which Sean saved her (we dont know if she was saved before or after), by the loss of Sean and by the overload event, so by that time she is a complete mess, so no wonder she talks the way she talks.

And yes she will romance Roy willingly (in one of the story choices, because in the other choice Roy r*pes her fair and square), but at that point in her life and story, it doesnt mean much, she definitely doesnt care who she sleeps with anymore, as her line you quoted expresses quite clearly.

Originally posted by Anax:

Originally posted by kaay:

Sean did not take advantage of Mary, Roy did, as he did take advantage of everybody except Innocence. Roy is a quintessential jerk and bad guy [...]

Hashtag NotMyRoy. I went with a typical Hollywood movie main character and always chose the good guy answers, finished every quest with the best possible outcome, and didn't kill anybody I could avoid killing.

Again i have to stress out the implicit nature of the story. It doesnt matter if you chose to play Roy as a 100% good character (its what i did too by the way).
The personality of Roy comes out from the context:
Who are his old "friends"? A brothel owner involved in drug traffic and murders connected to drug traffic, and a paid killer who doesnt hesitate for a moment to take the bounty on Roy"s head. We have to wonder who was Roy if he had such noble friends, because birds of a feather flock together.
In the game and in all trailers ive seen, Roy is showed as attempting to kill a downed opponent, not the most noble of traits, if you ask me.

You can definitely play Roy as a gentleman and a scholar, but every account of his past shows he is neither nor, which is what i liked about the game, in my mind Roy was the bad guy turned good by the unexplained attachment to Innocence.
Its what i wanted to see, and its different from what you wanted to see, and in the absence of an explicit story, both our versions are just that: what we chose to see :)

And yeah i totally agree with you on the difference between MWL Sean and The Techomancer Sean. These are definite inconsistencies, but that didnt bother me much, as i regard the two games stories as completely separate and not connected.
The developer for some reason felt the need to forcefully connect the stories in the two games with Scum and Sean, and unsurprisingly that lead to contradictions.