Ending (spoilers)

[Sonwig]

So which ending did you choose? I activated the machine and fused the artefacts because I thought killing billions of people was the wrong thing to do. Yeah I know in the game everyone wants to die but that's not happening if I can avoid it, I would save the angels too if I could (yeah I know that would lead to immense suffering, well deal with it, life is painful).

I always do the 'merge' ending in games, I don't see whats such a problem with merging everyone's consciousness into one. Like that would mean everyone would live, everyone's memories and personality would be preserved and literally everyone would be getting what they want assuming every person going in is preserved in the single consciousness to the same extent.

You wouldn't have freedom? You already don't have freedom. In order to be part of any society you have to give something up. You have to sacrifice yourself for that society, or you will be excluded from it. You have to die in a war when necessary or sacrifice the quality or length of your life. But society is efficient, we would not be able to have technology without capitalism. The issue right now is that our collectives are capitalist, not equally distributed. That's why we go to war unnecessarily.

A hive mind is just democracy on a large scale happening every moment. This is the kind of society I find most appealing since individuality remains even if you are linked to others. This would be true democracy and a true realisation of people's desires since others would know exactly what you want. It's basically what would happen in the stage after communism. A possible war would also be the most violent thing ever to happen, with waves of millions of spaceships clouded in defence drones (each with a conscious mind inside) firing clouds of particles at each other from dust guns and impossibly powerful lasers slowly ablating mass or even just heating the enemy up from light minutes away. This is inevitable because it is more economically efficient.

I think a full merge into one consciousness is scary, and it also has security issues (I mean in this game the grand army gets infected all at once because they are connected). I would say no if given the choice today. But in the end it is a more economically and energy efficient way to live. I can't imagine any other way of living at the end of the universe. Even if humanity is scared, we will eventually take that step whether we like to or not. And this will not be a bad thing for people since you will be the single consciousness, but you will be only a small part of it so sometimes what you wanted will have to be sidelined in comparison to what other parts of the mind want. It will be so incomprehensibly large, however, that it might fulfil all its desires at once. So even if it is terrifying, I don't think this is a negative future.

I probably have a very controversial opinion here. so I want to hear what ending you chose and why. Also, was there a cutscene for the other ending that I missed.

[StupidSexyBigChunga]

Im going to politely avoid the political opinion in your post as discussing politics in steam seems to be a bad idea. That being said; you kind of got the majority of what was going on in the ending correct.

Ending 1: Your merge all human consciousnesses into one being. This is not a hivemind, it is one consciousness made up of all human beings that have died and have had their consciousness stored by the angels. So your are merging those who are already dead into one godhood.

Ending 2: You blow everything up. The god never awakens, the billions of dead humans with their consciousness trapped in the artefacts of the Trumpeters never have their consciousness fused into one being and thus achieve true death.

What does this mean? In ending 1, any human that wishes an eternal death will not get it. Any human consciousness that doesn't want its personality and soul permanently changed will be forced to merge with others. This is a big yikes if you have a moral code based on consent, as you are unconsentually merging souls into others against their will for the chance of being with the essence of Elulu, your brother.

Also, you wont be re-united with the soul of Elulu, its actually the souls of the 2 unborn children in your womb (Elulu being the father) that were killed by the machine angels as punishment for incest, that carry the essence of Elulu, that Martyr wants to re-unite with.

[meowmers]

The Martyr is a clone with programmed motivations anyway. Assuming you aren't following the advice of a sentient ships trying to breed new CPU cores, Ending 1 isn't morally wrong, just ethically wrong. All the humans are sinners and the trumpeters are technically following God's will. It's the "right" thing to do and your purpose.

[StupidSexyBigChunga]

Originally posted by meowmers:

The Martyr is a clone with programmed motivations anyway. Assuming you aren't following the advice of a sentient ships trying to breed new CPU cores, Ending 1 isn't morally wrong, just ethically wrong. All the humans are sinners and the trumpeters are technically following God's will. It's the "right" thing to do and your purpose.

In the game god is either dead or not present, so the Trumpeters following gods will is just an assumption at this stage. Which is why both the Fake angels tried to make god (the sleeping god in the first game) and why the Trumpeters are trying to make their version of God in this game.

[Sonwig]

Originally posted by StupidSexyBigChunga:

Also, you wont be re-united with the soul of Elulu, its actually the souls of the 2 unborn children in your womb (Elulu being the father) that were killed by the machine angels as punishment for incest, that carry the essence of Elulu, that Martyr wants to re-unite with.

This is the part of the plot I don't quite understand, why won't the Martyr be reunited with Elulu? I thought Elulu and the Martyr were ripped apart when she was still pregnant and then used for genetic material which is how we get the Martyr clones and Tycho. And then of course the Edelweiss boy is from them ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and like a single zygote surviving.

I didn't realise this at all because the in-game art shows the two siblings not any fetuses or babies. I kind of thought that maybe the fetuses were turned into the angel of lust, but then I don't think the martyr would destroy them if that was the case.

[Spicy Crab]

Considering that Elulu quite literally asks Martyr to let them rest in peace, I think there's only one correct option.

[StupidSexyBigChunga]

Originally posted by Sonwig:

Originally posted by StupidSexyBigChunga:

Also, you wont be re-united with the soul of Elulu, its actually the souls of the 2 unborn children in your womb (Elulu being the father) that were killed by the machine angels as punishment for incest, that carry the essence of Elulu, that Martyr wants to re-unite with.

This is the part of the plot I don't quite understand, why won't the Martyr be reunited with Elulu? I thought Elulu and the Martyr were ripped apart when she was still pregnant and then used for genetic material which is how we get the Martyr clones and Tycho. And then of course the Edelweiss boy is from them ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and like a single zygote surviving.

I didn't realise this at all because the in-game art shows the two siblings not any fetuses or babies. I kind of thought that maybe the fetuses were turned into the angel of lust, but then I don't think the martyr would destroy them if that was the case.

I think its safe to say, at this point, that we aren't actually seeing the real Elulu and he is just a figment of Martyr's imagination, or a vestige of the original Martyrs memory. This is eluded too in the tutorial in the semi not so secret area with the console talking about erasing or editing Martyrs memories before she woke up. This could obviously change in the future with a third game or the dev posting more lore on his twitter.

As regards to the original martyr's children being ripped out of her by the fake angels, there is a blurb about it in one of the artefacts you collect; something about "give me back my children" or something.

I do believe the angel of lust is a clone from the original Martyr and Elulu, why, i dont know. As far as Tycho goes, the dev has Martyr's family tree up on his twitter, from memory there is a question mark over Tycho's head about whether he is a clone from the orginal Martyr or not. If my memory is correct about that then that means the dev himself hasnt even made up his mind on some of his lore. Which is fine, its one guy after all.
Super trippy and depresing game though. One of the coolest parts was walking through the clone facility with floor to ceiling of cryogenic storage units with all the other martyrs in them. Kinda hit home just how disposable you are and how many times you must have died for them to store so many.

[StupidSexyBigChunga]

I honestly wouldn't take the lore as too set in stone as it clear when you start to really think about it, the dev is still making it up as he goes. Which is fine and means we will probably get some cool surprises in the next game. Martyrs unborn children is still a undeveloped plot arc and so is the other angel that is supposedly still wandering about somewhere. Other stuff like, what was Edelweiss doing while you were (not existing) after the end of the first game. How did the other chick who makes the lesser machine angels survive in the citadel after the first game, l i cant remember her name, was it the Seer? How the hell did she manage to locate Krones head in Tartarus, a place that we never go too. Who defended the citadel while you were gone and what were the organa doing the whole time except selling you guns and ammo. Just so many questions.

[Dervantar]

I do believe that the angel of lust were the children from martyrs womb. The twins. It would make sense for the martyr to destroy them, looking at what they became. I mean they had the tech to save Esqa ... a literal fertilzed ovum.

Also the martyr seems to transfer her concious or memories in every new body. I think the horned cyborg girl is her real body. You can see her in the gallery. The fragment of pride is the clue.
In the game it is stated in the loading screen on 7-4 that the enlightment wave is something similar to the tech the martyr uses but it is unknown how it works.
The bodies are clones.
The mind is always the same.
At least that is my take on this.

Would it just be normal clones what would hinder the edelweiss to just go full Clone Wars and wake up 1000 Martys to destroy the 'Demons'. There can only be one martyr because of this tech.

[StupidSexyBigChunga]

Originally posted by Dervantar:

I do believe that the angel of lust were the children from martyrs womb. The twins. It would make sense for the martyr to destroy them, looking at what they became. I mean they had the tech to save Esqa ... a literal fertilzed ovum.

Also the martyr seems to transfer her concious or memories in every new body. I think the horned cyborg girl is her real body. You can see her in the gallery. The fragment of pride is the clue.
In the game it is stated in the loading screen on 7-4 that the enlightment wave is something similar to the tech the martyr uses but it is unknown how it works.
The bodies are clones.
The mind is always the same.
At least that is my take on this.

Would it just be normal clones what would hinder the edelweiss to just go full Clone Wars and wake up 1000 Martys to destroy the 'Demons'. There can only be one martyr because of this tech.

Yea thats another thing that isnt explored very well, are we the only Martyr running around and if so why?

[meowmers]

I see it as Humans being a lifeform created for a purpose.
When the time came to harvest them, they were unfit.
The Martyr's task in this game could be seen as salvaging and restarting the process.
It's just an interpretation based on some of the possible influences. In the story, God and God's will are deliberately left ambiguous.
It does seem like the trapped souls would prefer to rest and I think setting off the bomb makes more sense to continue the story into a 3rd game.

[Just a Player]

so.. here is my take to merge them all into one would be forcing them to do so against their will and morally on the evil side of things. They REPEATEDLY asking you to let them die and rest to force them to do other wise is unethical.

The only ethical choice is to respect their wishes and allow them to pass their souls into the afterlife.

What the OP wants to do trying to put aside the obvious politically messaging is evil and exploiting the dead, to ignore their pleas and force them to be a god without even knowing if this will be a kind or evil god? why would you do that with out any promise or knowledge this god will be?

I ask you with this in mind what is the correct choice now?

[Kyrah Abattoir]

What you guys call "politics" is the OP trying to explain what his values are and what he stand for. What we consider as good or evil stems from what our values are.

Some value systems are more focused on the well being of the collective we belong to, some are more inherently selfish. And some are just uuh, based on abstract beliefs that are not grounded in any kind of objective reality.

Your values being different doesn't make them any less political.

[StupidSexyBigChunga]

Originally posted by Kyrah Abattoir:

What you guys call "politics" is the OP trying to explain what his values are and what he stand for. What we consider as good or evil stems from what our values are.

Some value systems are more focused on the well being of the collective we belong to, some are more inherently selfish. And some are just uuh, based on abstract beliefs that are not grounded in any kind of objective reality.

Your values being different doesn't make them any less political.

No, re-read his post. His moral opinion is a seperate subject from his political opinion. The political part of his post, was his opinion on socio-political systems, which I avoided because I didnt want to reference modern day social or economic politics when he brought up Capatilism and collectivism. And as this is the Steam forums, that was a good strategy for keeping things civil. This thread will de-rail itself if people address his political opinions about the nature of social systems and how humans organise themselves. Which is why in my posts I tried to address mainly (mainly) the story.

Edit: i realise my tone appears harsh but that is not the case, i just dont know how to write it another way atm, no hard feelings.

[ｗｉｓｅ狼]

I chose 2 to end the cycle for good. You can talk to Elulu again just after activating/destroying the singularity to see his different responses. Ultimately I think choice 1 is fulfilling the angel of lust's personal ambition (this seems to be supported by the achievement art), whereas 2 is doing what's needed to end humanity's mind & cybernetic enslavement to the angel/demon dichotomy. What this means for the remaining humans who were not "enlightened" (the organa, the few cybernetically enhanced that resisted its effects, "enlightened" who weren't killed by the martyr before the trumpeters were gone) and even our own Martyr or the rest of her shells, I'm not sure.

[Eight♥Six]

Originally posted by StupidSexyBigChunga:

Originally posted by Kyrah Abattoir:

What you guys call "politics" is the OP trying to explain what his values are and what he stand for. What we consider as good or evil stems from what our values are.

Some value systems are more focused on the well being of the collective we belong to, some are more inherently selfish. And some are just uuh, based on abstract beliefs that are not grounded in any kind of objective reality.

Your values being different doesn't make them any less political.

No., re-read his post. His moral opinion is a seperate subject from his political opinion. The political part of his post, was his opinion on socio-political systems, which I avoided because I didnt want to reference modern day social or economic politics when he brought up Capatilism and collectivism. And as this is the Steam forums, that was a good strategy for keeping things civil. This thread will de-rail itself if people address his political opinions about the nature of social systems and how humans organise themselves. Which is why in my posts I tried to address mainly (mainly) the story.

Very mature, I respect it
But allow this to be the last comment on politics to not derail this thread
don't wanna scare someone away from dropping their take on the ending

(despite me not dropping mine)

I destroyed, I kinda looked at it like I have no mouth and scream

Ted and Ellen realising what had to be done and killing the other two, and then killing Ellen to release them from the torture AM was putting em through

Same premise here but with almost 10 billion souls that were essentially suffering within the artefacts

Which was essentially AMs fate at the start of of I have no mouth and that created so much hate within one AI.

Imagine the collective emotions of almost 10 billion peoples extreme negative emotions regarding their current fate within the artefacts being under one consciousness

I felt like releasing them was the right choice rather than subjecting them to a fate like that