Is Sorcery Viable in this game?

[gregorsamsa]

This will be my first run-through of DS2. I know it’s super strange since I’ve been a fanboy of FromSoft games for years now having played DS1/DS3, ER, Sekiro, but for some reason never DS2.

I love sorcerer/magic builds in general in games. In DS1 sorcerer is probably OP and needed to get nerfed while in DS3 I felt is sorcerer is horribly weak.

I was wondering if sorcery is more balanced in this game, or is physical damage still king as it is in DS3?

[L9 dorothea]

i mean if you played every other game you should know every build is viable for PVE

[Koros Antavo]

It is balanced, though a bit boring in the first half of the game. To mitigate that, I recommend you either go for spellblade from the start, search the wiki for a quickest route to the more interesting spells, or spec into Dark so that you are able to use all schools of magic at the same time.

TBH, having 10/9 str/dex and using a Longsword as your primary weapon is more than enough melee weaponry for any kind of sorcerer. Make sure you know how the other stats work in this game before you start planning out your build.

[gregorsamsa]

When you say "spec into Dark" - what do you mean? I remember Dark damage in DS3 had to do with Pyromancy - is that the same in DS2? Sorry - I never played this game before, not even character creation

Also is the Estoc in this game? I loved that sucker in DS1/3

[JellyPuff]

Spells are very strong in PvE.

With "spec into dark", they mean Hexes. It's a dedicated school of magic, that requires you level INT and FTH equally to increase their Dark-damage scaling. 30INT+30FTH is the dark-dmg softcap, though some hexes have higher requirements.

Sorcery/Magic is just as good for PvE, if not better, if we factor in the most OP PvE spell, Yearn (DLC ez-mode). You can also farm it's "nuke spell" Crystal Soul Spear. The big nuke spells from other magic schools are once per playthrough or even just once per character, like Sunlight Spear (miracles) or Climax (hex).

Most enemies in the game are also weak to lightning or dark and strong against fire.

Offensive Miracles kinda suck until the lategame though, due to the pathetic amount of casts. Come to think of it, most defensive one's are redundant too, because Lifegems exist.
As for pyromancy, you can't start with a Pyro flame in this game, but can find one after beating Flexile Sentry, the boss of No Man's Wharf (early game area).

Another little tidbit: Enemies in DLC areas have higher elemental damage resistances specifically vs. spells.

Originally posted by gregorsamsa:

Also is the Estoc in this game? I loved that sucker in DS1/3

Yes, though it's a STR weapon in this game and one of the weaker (though still strong) thrusting swords for PvE (great moveset for PvP though), due to it's lower counter-damage value. Counter-damage in DS2 is kinda OP and is also not exclusive to thrust-type damage, unlike DS1/3.
Also, thrusting swords in general have different feeling movesets in DS2. In DS2, you don't do the little forward-fencing motion and instead you just thrust with almost no delay.

(Edit) I've forgot to mention one of the more fun things to do with targeted spells in this game: You can aim them using Binoculars. Unlike other soulsgames, you can still perform certain actions, while looking down through Binoculars (which also have to be equipped in one of the weapon-slots). Casting spells is one of those things, so you can snipe enemies with spells, like Soul Arrows or Dark Orbs.

[gregorsamsa]

Cool!
So what are some good weapons for low stat investments for casters?

And do hexes blow sorcery out of the water, power-gaming wise? Or are they pretty evenly matched?

[Meowser has not]

Yes, watched my summon DOT a late game boss to death with a poop cloud

[Koros Antavo]

Hexes are the strongest school of magic, plus most enemies in the game are weak to dark. In addition to that, all hexes deal stamina damage on hit. The second strongest poison dealer in the game is also a hex, and it is absolutely brutal, with this one spell easily surpassing a fully dedicated melee poison build.

However, they are not without their shortcomings. Usually they have shorter range than their sorcery / miracle counterparts, and more than 60% of them consume at least some amount of the souls you carry (all of those are cast with a chime btw). Considering ds2's multiplayer revolves around soul memory, these spells deal permanent damage to your character, which I find rather thematically fitting.

In general, sorceries are good at high damage at a distance, miracles offer a lot of buffs situational advantages (like Emit Force allowing you to explode barrels from a distance), pyromancies are best if you don't level int / fth at all, and hexes have the overal highest damage and the most devastating debuffs.

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Weapons for a mage:
- Dagger (2 str / 6 dex): basically 0 stat requirements, astronomically high critical damage. Good for riposting / backstabbing
- Longsword (10 str / 9 dex): the most reliable weapon in the game, quick and precise, with a varied moveset. Perfect for close range where you cannot cast spells effectively. Moderately benefits from elemental infusions
- Ice Rapier (13 str / 15 dex): the strongest rapier in the game with a projectile special attack. Benefits enormously form infusions. Has high counter damage. OP weapon
- Manikin Sabre (6 str / 19 dex): the second best curved sword in the game. Benefits greatly from infusions. Meta weapon
- Silverblack Spear (9 str / 16 dex / 8 int / 8 fth): one of the best spears for a hexer. As any spear, has good reach and counter damage. It also has innate dark damage, which can be boosted further using infusions. Has a semi-unique heavy attack, which slices in a wide arc around you, allowing you to do wide area hits which most spears don't
- Pilgrim's Spontoon (11 str / 12 dex / 30 int / 30 fth): both a spear and a magic staff at the same time. Deals no physical damage, only elemental damage, which works wonders against shields. Rather mediocre as a catalyst, but can be infused and buffed to mitigate that. As any spear, has counter damage, but here it also applies to the spells you cast.
- Blue Flame: (13 str / 15 dex / 12 int): both a sword and a sorcery-exclusive magic staff at the same time. Deals very high damage for its wepaon class. Can be buffed with spells, or when uninfused / infused with Raw - with resins. Its low requirements allow it to be an OP sorcery catalyst at level 1 with the right build. Its decent scaling allow it to stay relevant for any spellblade build, although it loses against a number of staves in scaling, and its cast speed is not the best.
- Sanctum Shield: (6 str / 7 dex / 18 int / 18 fth): both a shield and a unversal catalyst. The only spells it cannot cast are pyromancies. Is a decent all-round catalyst, and works rather well as a shield. Cannot be buffed for damage, but can be buffed for extra protection.

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In ds2, you can infuse almost every weapon, even most boss weapons. You can also use spells to buff most weapons, including infused wepaons. In the chain of [base damage] -> [infusion] -> [buff] -> [counter damage], elemental damage stacks multiplicatively with each step. Also, not only thrusting weapons, but many other weapons as well have counter damage. If you stack your damage properly, you can get some seriously destructive results.

[Rhacius]

It's perfectly viable outside of the DLCs. If you want to do the DLCs as a pure mage you have to min/max (domino mask, proper rings, 94 attunement for 50 spears/25 crystal spears, lion mage set). Even in the DLC things will die albeit inefficiently. NG+ is a different story though.

[JellyPuff]

Originally posted by gregorsamsa:

Cool!
So what are some good weapons for low stat investments for casters?

Anything Lenigrast sells with low requirements and maybe the Hand Axe sold by Melentia. Lenigrast sells some of the most stat-efficient weapons in the game, popular amongst speed/challenger runners, especially the Rapier which you can also abuse counter-damage with.
If you want to really go for lowest STR/DEX possible, Foot Soldier Sword dropped by some early game hollows in Forest of Fallen Giants.

The best side-arm for casters is probably the Ice Rapier, if you don't mind leveling STR/DEX a little bit. You're probably going to infuse and use spellbuffs and with the Ice Rapier you can heavily abuse both of these things as well as it's counter damage. The downside to this is, that you'll feel so overpowered with an infused and buffed Ice Rapier (especially with Flynn's Ring+Old Leo Ring), that you might stop using spells altogether.

Also important: Spellbuffs scale relative to the buffed weapon's total base attack rating (combined physical and elemental damage before scaling), which tends to be higher infused. If you are wondering, which weapons "infuse well" then that's just something you gotta trial and error or look at the wiki beforehand. As a general rule of thumb, an infusion should at least give twice of the physical base damage lost as elemental base damage. The Estoc actually fits that bill and as more than viable for PvE. I've actually done a sorcerer playthrough with that weapon magic-infused at some point (lightning or dark infusion is usually better).

Originally posted by gregorsamsa:

And do hexes blow sorcery out of the water, power-gaming wise? Or are they pretty evenly matched?

Hexes tend to be a bit stronger offensively. But it comes down to playstyle in the end, which suits your more. Just try out both. Experiment. You can respecc using Soul Vessels.

[NightmareGats]

Min/max a Low SM Hexes build.
Use some boss soul after you invade someone.
Cast climax.
Reload your backup save so your SM resets to a low tier.

[Koros Antavo]

Originally posted by NightmareGats:

Reload your backup save so your SM resets to a low tier.

Actually, that can get you banned for "soul memory manipulation". *sigh* Can't even use backups without the fun police breathing down your neck.

[JellyPuff]

Originally posted by Koros Antavo:

Originally posted by NightmareGats:

Reload your backup save so your SM resets to a low tier.

Actually, that can get you banned for "soul memory manipulation". *sigh* Can't even use backups without the fun police breathing down your neck.

Not sure why invasion cheese is brought up in the first place, but you don't get softbanned for using backed-up saves. You can even use other people's saves just fine, as long as they have legit data on them (it can be a bit of a hassle, though since saves are tied to your Steam-ID).
Manipulating SM does get you banned, but you'd have to use something, like Cheat Engine to achieve this or get invaded by a malicious cheater, setting your SM to 0 or otherwise messing with your stats in order to get you softbanned.

In fact, reverting to a clean, backed-up save is the only way to avoid a softban from cheaters giving you impossible stats. That's why the Blue Acolyte-mod does make save backups automatically.

[Willheart]

Originally posted by JellyPuff:

Originally posted by gregorsamsa:

Cool!
So what are some good weapons for low stat investments for casters?

the Hand Axe sold by Melentia.
(...)
Lenigrast sells some of the most stat-efficient weapons in the game
(...)
especially the Rapier
(...)
Foot Soldier Sword
(...)
The best side-arm for casters is probably the Ice Rapier

Surprised nobody mentions the Craftsman's Hammer - you'd probably need to two-hand it but that thing always brings me to end-game without even upgrading it. The Morningstar and Mace are lite versions of that weapon available early, Blunt damage is always incredibly useful, they're fast and they hit hard with good stagger, but they're very short range.

I use the Foot Soldier Sword on my Spellsword, and although it's a damn good all-rounder, it's a huge faff to repair since it has 1/3 the durability of a normal sword - the Shortsword is nearly identical except for slightly higher stat requirement and (surprise surprise) shorter blade, and you can get the Shortsword VERY early without relying on enemy drops.

The Chaos Rapier probably also deserves a mention: it's Fire damage but overall it's incredibly solid and you can get it pretty early, a fair alternative to the Ice Rapier or normal Rapier/Estoc. Fire damage will scale with either INT or FTH or both, so it's still useful to a Sorcerer, Miracle or Hexer build, although many enemies are resistant to Fire it never hurts to have extra damage types in the pocket just in case you find enemies resistant to Magic or Dark.

The Dagger is always nice to have on hand as well for backstabs. As a sorcerer you'll be watching enemies from a distance a lot, so you should get an idea how they move and when they're vulnerable (unless you're just one-shotting them :p), having something on hand that deals a tonne of backstab damage is pretty handy if you get confident moving beside them, saves on Spell Stock.

It's a shame so many enemies have invisible alert triggers by proximity, otherwise a 'Hush' Dagger assassin would be fairly viable.

[NightmareGats]

Originally posted by JellyPuff:

Originally posted by Koros Antavo:

Actually, that can get you banned for "soul memory manipulation". *sigh* Can't even use backups without the fun police breathing down your neck.

Not sure why invasion cheese is brought up in the first place, but you don't get softbanned for using backed-up saves. You can even use other people's saves just fine, as long as they have legit data on them (it can be a bit of a hassle, though since saves are tied to your Steam-ID).
Manipulating SM does get you banned, but you'd have to use something, like Cheat Engine to achieve this or get invaded by a malicious cheater, setting your SM to 0 or otherwise messing with your stats in order to get you softbanned.

In fact, reverting to a clean, backed-up save is the only way to avoid a softban from cheaters giving you impossible stats. That's why the Blue Acolyte-mod does make save backups automatically.

isn't cheesing if the host has 1-3 phantoms.

[JellyPuff]

Originally posted by Willheart:

Surprised nobody mentions the Craftsman's Hammer

It's the best hammer in the game, but you won't benefit as much from it, if not going for a STR or STR-hybrid build. It's only a little stronger than a Mace at min stats (same AR, but better counter damage). If you want to use a hammer on a caster build, I'd rather recommend the Mace for it's lower requirements and infuse it and after defeating Looking Glass Knight, you can swap it out for the Homunculus Mace if needed and infuse that one. Pretty high AR infused at min. stats, which makes buffing it even better. Add Flynn's Ring to the mix for some good ol' overkill.