How subjective the concept on "honor" really is.

[squat_instructor]

WARNING!!! GIANT WALL OF TEXT AHEAD!!! YOU WERE WARNED!!!

I really like how this game, or rather it`s community, brings such a great example of double standarts through the set of unwritten rules, that a lot of people consider MANDATORY to follow, otherwise you`re cancer/tryhard/ballerina or whatever. And yet, despite the fact that this "honor code" is supposed to represent your respect to the opponent and it also serves as a moral system, that encourages you to make the fight as equal as possible, people still adapt it to their subjective vision of what is right. Not sure if you`re following my twisted thought process, spiced up with the fact that English is not my native language, but look at some examples:

#1

Let`s imagine a square arena with the fighter A in one corner, and fighter B in the other. Let`s say that fighter A has a longsword, fashion with no poise, and that`s it. Let`s say that fighter B has some ultra weapon with good range and moveset, like Drakekeeper`s GA. He also has X poise amount (can`t remember the exact value, it`s between 95 and 105 i think), which will allow him to withstand 2handed longsword running attack. Now ask yourself: what player, if you look through "honor" prism, should be considered favoured in this setup? Well, it depends on a player, you`ll say. Okay, let`s assume that they are roughly equal in their skill (lel). At this point it all comes down to how much effort and game mechanics knowledge will it require each player to put into this fight, to use their builds as effective as possible.

Let`s look at player B first. Considering the fact that his AR is way higher, and he has poise to back it up, his best bet will be to bait the opponent with the possibility to punish him with mixups (Kappa), delaying attack follow ups and force trades. He doesn`t need to worry about being parried, if he doesn`t go crazy with running/rolling attacks since he uses GA (2h ofc). And on top of that his BS damage is way higher.

Let`s look at player A now. Since his opponent has poise and higher AR, it causes a few problems: 1) He can`t trade in any situation; 2) He either needs to use Stone Ring to be able to minimise the poise factor in this fight (which would be a waste of a ring slot), or try to outspace his opponent (that spinning around everyone gets mad about), so he can punish his opponent between his swings safely, avoiding trades. However his opponent is more vulnerable to backstabs, but the risk is considerable. Spacing requires unlocked play. If you wan`t more detailes about spacing, watch Apkoha`s and/or Tobio`s videos.

So, in order to win this fight, players need to put different amount of (ye I`m gonna use this stupid word) SKILL to use their builds to max potential. And it seems to me that A>B in this scenario (feel free to tell me that I`m wrong, but make sure to back it up with arguments). But here comes the interesting part:

Player A: longsword - dishonorable, playing unlocked - doshonorable, backstabs - dishonorable, frequent running attacks - dishonorable. That`s 4.

Player B: GA - cool, poise - not cool but fine, swings his weapon left and right (in order to create mixup opportunities) - cool, backstabs - dishonorable, but he uses slower weapon. That`s 1.

4>1, which means Player A = tryhard.

The matchup in this case is offcourse in favour of a longsword user, but the point is that despite the difference in the amount of effort and knowledge the situation requires you to put into this fight, some thing are considered "dishonorable" and "tryhard" no matter what.

That`s a bit primitive, but it`s enough too see the pattern I`m trying to bring up. Another example, simple one:

#2

Same stuff: 2 players, equal skill, both have longswords, no armor, no rings, same stats. Let`s say Player A equips a shield. BOOM. Instant advantage swing, almost no chance for Player B to win.

Question: Why the shield isn`t considered OP/Tryhard/dishonorable?

But shield actually requires some skill to use you might say. That`s true, even if it`s not a lot. Let`s go further:

#3

Same stuff again, but player B uses resin to buff his weapon. This time one of the players gains less amount of advantage, BUT all it takes is PRESSING A SINGLE BUTTON. No stats invested, no risk involved, no skill needed.

Question: Why is this acceptable in "honor code"?

So, my point is that in this game there`s a lot of thing that can give you an advantage without any effort on your side, and most of those things are within the "honor book". But if you use some equipment, that requires you to play in a certain way to get the advantage, which involves taking risks - you`re automatically tagged as a cheap player. A lot of "honorable" gentlemen simply just brand anything they can`t deal with as "Tryhard Stuff and u r bad for using it".

So basically in order for me to follow the righteous ways I should deliberately lose to your "honorable" build, while forcing myself to match your playstyle, even if that means 0 chance to win? Is that what being "honorable" means?

Not that this issue is bothering me much, still I had too much free time today to produce this nonsense. I will try respond to your objections on my GIGANTIC WALL OF TEXT (if you`ll bring something to back them up).

Peace.

[TrueArchery]

You should know that the ones who are constantly pointing out the (unwritten) "honor code" are usually buffstacking, using Katanas and backstab protection (as you said, backstabs are dishonorable! lol) and bowing before and after every fight - they consider that as a "fair and honorable" match with "equal chances".

The more skilled players actually don't care much about honor codes, at least in my experience. They don't think that running around unlocked is cheap and dishonorable. Neither do I.

I usually let the people buff one time, after that I'll charge them. Buffing means the fight has started. I don't feel like I have to follow certain "honor codes" by some random honorf@gs (sorry for the insult, but it's true) - that's why I don't mind using Katanas or Straight Swords. They're in the game, you can deal with them, you can outplay them.

[squat_instructor]

I`m actually surprised that someone bothered to read that.

[Mongo]

New sales, new honor-thread. Grow up.

[squat_instructor]

Strangely enough this post has nothing to do with the sale. It`s just the fact that 80% of threads are "Guys, I`m 12 years old and I`m unable to make a decision to buy this videogame. Pls help me XD". Just the result of me having too much time to waste.

[Mongo]

so go play the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game and stop bothering anyone with your honor

[terrorinsc]

You invade me I'm going to be as cheap as possible to win. I usually lose anyhow so who cares? lol

[squat_instructor]

lol

[squat_instructor]

Don`t tell me what to do, I will discuss irrelevant things on the internet with random people I will never meet for as long as I want to.

[Mongo]

Originally posted by clearly_not:

Don`t tell me what to do, I will discuss irrelevant things on the internet with random people I will never meet for as long as I want to.

what you want is irrelevant. You want to discuss it?

[Mongo]

HA! He DID start the game. I knew it.

[squat_instructor]

THANKS OBAMA!!

[LightOfJudgment]

To be honest, this very issue is part of why I don't particularly care to interact with this ("this" being the more vocal PvP focused individuals) part of the community.

[Scraps]

Depends, if I'm in the Dragon Covenant or sparing with a bluebro, I'll be respectful at the very least.

If I'm getting Dickwraithed, the last thing a BoB member should even recieve is honor.

EDIT: Did a quick scim through your post and I'm a little shocked you didn't mention the 150SL limit -a lot- of people do. If you were to PvE randomly outside of your little fightclub or whatever, you'll more than likely end up fighting a BoB with SL500+ while you're at 150. The limit is there so people try to make the system like DS1, but SM just derails it and is even worse for those who focus more on archery.

[squat_instructor]

Originally posted by Incanté the Non-Festive Drake:

Depends, if I'm in the Dragon Covenant or sparing with a bluebro, I'll be respectful at the very least.

If I'm getting Dickwraithed, the last thing a BoB member should even recieve is honor.

I like the fact that you missed the whole point of this post.

[Scraps]

Originally posted by clearly_not:

Originally posted by Incanté the Non-Festive Drake:

Depends, if I'm in the Dragon Covenant or sparing with a bluebro, I'll be respectful at the very least.

If I'm getting Dickwraithed, the last thing a BoB member should even recieve is honor.

I like the fact that you missed the whole point of this post.

That people restrict themselves to a certain arsenal to give themselves mental honor points whilst calling out other people for their own honor and you disagree with that mentality? That's what I got from it.