Hard but Fair?

[Artrysa]

So alot of people say that Dark Souls is hard but fair right? Is it just me or is that a load of crap? It's definetly doable but i wouldn't call it fair.

[Knight Silver]

Dark Souls 2 is notorious for being the only Souls game that isn't fair throughout most of the game.

I would recommend starting w/ DS1

[Jouni]

Is it fair that enemies can shoot projectiles through each other to stagger you and level desing abuses this as often as it possibly can?
Is it fair that running in water will slow you down but your equally humanoid enemies are completely unaffected?
This game has many examples of artificial difficulty. There's no denying that.

[ctrlaltdelete]

there are bosses in dark souls 2 that arent fair in the slightest, (SotFs) enemy placement is garbage better try dark souls 1

[myoptic]

Certain things are a bit unfair. But they tend to be the minority of what makes the game hard.

For example, I think the gank squads in the forest are fair. The old Knights at hiedes are really good.

But the spear guys in the forest get blocking frames while shield bashing. I mean, for God's sake. Other enemies get shields frames while attacking with a halberd or sword too. You only find out when you attack them to knock them out of thier attack animation and then eat a bunch of damage when they take it on thier shield. Utter crap.

There are a few others cases. Infinite stamina, impossible tracking, etc.

When you're​ learning the game, sometimes it's best to respond to unfairness with cheese. A stack of poison arrows will serve you well in some areas

[Washing Machine]

It's pretty much based on trial and error moreso than anything.
Learn the timing on every attack, learn where the next stupid enemy ambush is, learn where each herpderp trap is waiting, etc. The other games do much of the same, so it's not a new thing to soulsborne series. I think someone did a good list on it and DS1 is actually more of a "cheap death the player couldn't see coming"-offender than this game is. I just think the clunky feel and the agility i-frames crap make DS2 way more frustrating.

Way better port than DS1 tho, I'll give this game that.

[Alkami]

Dark Souls 2 actually did a much better job with the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ factor than the first game.
It is a bit more challenging and punishing though, especially for newer players.

[myoptic]

To those suggesting ds1 is any better: ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. It has it's fair share of unfairness, plus it's buggy af to boot.

[Washing Machine]

Eh, I always found the challenge in this game to be the completely wrong kind.
The hitboxes feel awful, the movement feels weird and slow, enemies love to just spin on their feet tracking the player if you walk around them, theres tons of moments where you just fight a huge stack of enemies at the same time... The general feel of this game is just clunky and off.

Like tons of attacks the enemies have have enormous windups, so the telegraph is there, but the iffy i-frames with rolls make it all feel so weird. It's not really a matter of reactions since the enemy attacks can be seen coming a thousand miles away, it's moreso a matter of just knowing exactly when the stupid attack is in it's active frames. Like the other games I feel like I can see an attack coming and dodge it on reaction succesfully enough, but DS2 it's like I can clearly see the enemy is sloooowly winding up for an attack, but I don't know WHEN this stupid swing comes at me, so I either roll too early or too late due to that, ergo I have to get hit by the attack until I learn the exact timing to roll through it. Trial and error.

Also alot of times the level challenge isn't really that the game throws something interesting at the player, it's moreso "here, we just piled more of these big enemies with poise on you and they have no collision and huge long range attacks, so now you gotta pace around kiting them for 8 years waiting for an opportunity to hit one of them back". Which is what alot of bosses are, too. Just more dudes at the same time.

[myoptic]

Originally posted by Washing Machine:

Eh, I always found the challenge in this game to be the completely wrong kind.
The hitboxes feel awful, the movement feels weird and slow, enemies love to just spin on their feet tracking the player if you walk around them, theres tons of moments where you just fight a huge stack of enemies at the same time... The general feel of this game is just clunky and off.

Like tons of attacks the enemies have have enormous windups, so the telegraph is there, but the iffy i-frames with rolls make it all feel so weird. It's not really a matter of reactions since the enemy attacks can be seen coming a thousand miles away, it's moreso a matter of just knowing exactly when the stupid attack is in it's active frames. Like the other games I feel like I can see an attack coming and dodge it on reaction succesfully enough, but DS2 it's like I can clearly see the enemy is sloooowly winding up for an attack, but I don't know WHEN this stupid swing comes at me, so I either roll too early or too late due to that, ergo I have to get hit by the attack until I learn the exact timing to roll through it. Trial and error.

Also alot of times the level challenge isn't really that the game throws something interesting at the player, it's moreso "here, we just piled more of these big enemies with poise on you and they have no collision and huge long range attacks, so now you gotta pace around kiting them for 8 years waiting for an opportunity to hit one of them back". Which is what alot of bosses are, too. Just more dudes at the same time.

That's your opinion.

I actually found rolling to be smoother and more forgiving in ds2 than in ds1. Maybe you didn't get your agility.

The bosses are no different. In fact, imo, on average they are better in 2. Although the best boss battles are in ds1.

You seem to be referring to the big knights in dragon shrine with your last complaint. And I agree, the hammer dude is utter crap. But such cases aren't normal. And they're entirely cheeseable with the right strategy.

[Washing Machine]

I know how agility works, beat the game once before.
It just feels overall as if I can pick up DS1, DS3 or Bloodborne, and I can usually dodge attacks when I see them. Sometimes they're too fast and it's rough, sometimes there's trolly telegraphs that look like a fast attack but was actually a delayed slower attack, sometimes there's followup attacks, so there's trial and error there too. But in this a boss is slowly raising it's weapon above it's head, I'm not doing anything, but I have to know exactly when the attack counts to hit or else my roll didn't do jack. It's like most every boss has 3 different attacks total, but the fight is to figure out just when the hell is the roll supposed to be done so it wouldn't hit me. You can't rely on just seeing the swing coming at you. You have to know the timing.

And I think most every enemy and boss is an offender of the spin-on-feet crime. The ninja turtles love doing it. The big guys in Tower of Flame all do it. Currently trotting around Bastille and the flamberge dudes do it all day. The ruin sentinels are doing it. It's lazy design and one of the biggest cripes I got about this game. I hate watching enemies spinning on their magic ice skates to track the player because the devs couldn't be assed just giving them wide arc attacks.

[myoptic]

Originally posted by Washing Machine:

I know how agility works, beat the game once before.
It just feels overall as if I can pick up DS1, DS3 or Bloodborne, and I can usually dodge attacks when I see them. Sometimes they're too fast and it's rough, sometimes there's trolly telegraphs that look like a fast attack but was actually a delayed slower attack, sometimes there's followup attacks, so there's trial and error there too. But in this a boss is slowly raising it's weapon above it's head, I'm not doing anything, but I have to know exactly when the attack counts to hit or else my roll didn't do jack. It's like most every boss has 3 different attacks total, but the fight is to figure out just when the hell is the roll supposed to be done so it wouldn't hit me. You can't rely on just seeing the swing coming at you. You have to know the timing.

This is a non-issue, and DS1 has the same feature. Huge wind-ups followed by quick attacks. You're probably thinking about the smelter demon in particular and projecting that to the rest of the bosses anyway.

Originally posted by Washing Machine:

And I think most every enemy and boss is an offender of the spin-on-feet crime. The ninja turtles love doing it. The big guys in Tower of Flame all do it. Currently trotting around Bastille and the flamberge dudes do it all day. The ruin sentinels are doing it. It's lazy design and one of the biggest cripes I got about this game. I hate watching enemies spinning on their magic ice skates to track the player because the devs couldn't be assed just giving them wide arc attacks.

I agree that the problem of impossible tracking exists in the game. But to say all or most of the enemies have perfect or even good tracking is absurd. The old knights, for example, can be baited to attack and then you can literally watch them swing at the empty air as they try to turn to follow you. Very funny. A lot of people get hit with the 3rd attack because it has a really wide swing to it. I don't even roll them anymore, I just walk around. The turtle knights can punish you for a bad roll, but not nearly as well as, for example, the red invader that stands in front of the chariot boss. He can roll punish you with a vertical jump attack! Same goes for the royal knights in bastille. They can track, but not in an unfair way.

Most boss attacks are actually pretty static. Alonne knight, for example, has a distance-closer than ends with a slash. If you see him wind up for it and walk backwards, he will probably slash the air in front of you.

Again, its a real problem - but only for a small minority of enemies. No need to project it onto them all.

I chalk it up to an occasional overcompensation for the problem of DS1 where you could avoid nearly every attack in the game by locking on and circling on way of the other. Talk about bad mechanics.

[jacob]

git gud