Miracles seem... underwhelming

[pretorian]

I have never played DS2 pre SotFS but I understand that miracles were all the rage back then, before they got nerfed. I'm currently running a paladin like build and I must say I'm very disappointed at miracles, at least compared to DS1.

Like Lightning Spear. In DS1 it fealt like a good backup to be used carefully, seeing as it only had like around nine casts. It still hit hard enough to warrant a slot.

In DS2 you have three casts (with ATT 15) and it hit's no where near as hard as in DS1. Granted the number of uses increase with ATT but that requires a hefty investment in that stat.

Right now (FTH 22, ATT 15), I haven't really seen any good use of miracles appart from some extra heals and perhaps some buff.

Am I missing something here or are miracles just this weak?

[OntologicalWeevil]

It's pretty garbage.

Miracles are better for the buffs. If you want to use magic go for sorcery for damage.

[Shironagi]

Miracles are weak. the nerf really screwed them, Sunlight Spear is pathetic when compared to Crystal Soul Spear, and the windups for most spells suck, at least most fighters in pvp aren't geared towards lightning defence.

[TrueArchery]

Well, you're missing a couple of things.

First off, Miracles are also very supportive. Obviously, all the other schools have their own "utility"-spells like Yearn, Whisper of Despair, Iron Flesh and such, but Miracles have the superior support of many Heal-spells, HoT-spells, Denial, other body-buffs... it's only fair that they aren't the best offensive casting class aswell.
Dark Souls 1 balance is pretty flawed anyways.

You're right about the basic Lightning Spear. It ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sucks. Just use Emit Force in the beginning.
BUT. Great Lightning Spear doesn't. You can stack up some GLS spells. They're more useful then Soul Spears tbh.
Sunlightspear is a nuke-spell. You cannot get it multiple times, but it's very damaging. Calling it "pathetic" compared to CSS just shows that you didn't really use it much. Well, Shironagi, you also believe that CSS is the best PvE-spell which it definitely isn't, imo.
Anyway, Heavenly Thunder is a great AoE-spell.
Wrath of Gods, arguably the best "small-AoE"-spell. Kinda annoying to get.
Blinding Bolt is totally random, but hits hard. More the PvP-opening-spell.
Soul Appease is very situational, but excels in these situations.
So, everything except Lightning Spear has its place. Emit Force is a nice and easy-to-get start, it's also quite useful in PvP due to the AoE-effect and free-aiming it is rewarding.

Last, there's a ton of gear which improves Miracle-damage:
Black Witch Domino Mask, Blue Dagger, Sun Seal, Lightning Clutch Ring... dunno whether I forgot something.

[Leoscar]

As said before miracles aren't garbage:
The heal capacity is awesome, sure it's not flashy lightning flying on the face of bosses, but in coop healing the host can save him, and save you. Not to mention the Estus you'll save when playing on your own.
And again, as said before high level miracles are very powerful, like sunlight spear, Wrath of the gods to talk about the two most famous.

Is it as effective as sorcery? Maybe not in early game, but in late game it is equaly strong, well I have very little experience with sorcery, but that's how I feel about it.

[Scaredy Cat]

Yeah, miracles are hard to start out with, but once your each a decent level and get the proper equipment (dragon chime, clear bluestone or blue clearstone can never remember) to name a few, miracles are very powerful.

[Leoscar]

Originally posted by Scaredy Cat:

Yeah, miracles are hard to start out with, but once your each a decent level and get the proper equipment (dragon chime, clear bluestone or blue clearstone can never remember) to name a few, miracles are very powerful.

Speaking of the dragon chime, should I kill the old man (I don't remember his name) to get it or bother leveling his covenant? I know that (*SPOILER*) the boss is weak to lighning, so my FTH build hspuld do it without much problem.
And since I don't use hexes...It seems like I have no reason to bother keeping this NPC alive.

[TrueArchery]

Originally posted by Leoscar:

Originally posted by Scaredy Cat:

Yeah, miracles are hard to start out with, but once your each a decent level and get the proper equipment (dragon chime, clear bluestone or blue clearstone can never remember) to name a few, miracles are very powerful.

Speaking of the dragon chime, should I kill the old man (I don't remember his name) to get it or bother leveling his covenant? I know that (*SPOILER*) the boss is weak to lighning, so my FTH build hspuld do it without much problem.
And since I don't use hexes...It seems like I have no reason to bother keeping this NPC alive.

His covenant is pretty irrelevant for Clerics. The only rewards are Hexes, the Xanthous Set and a few items like Ascetics. I killed him on my Celric-run, too.

[myoptic]

I'm mildly surprised that the higher level lightning spears have such high AR. And to add to the high AR, the AoE gives it a nice little boost since a direct hit will cause both to the target.

If you compare SS -> great lightning spear and CSS -> sunlight spear, the lightning miracles are the clear winner in terms of AR. BUT, as truearchery pointed out, only one copy of sunlight spear is avialable per character, so I am doubtful about comparing it to CSS. CSS can be stacked to get around 6-10 casts with enough attunemtn and using the right gear. Thats pretty good, given that CSS has an AR of around 1200-1400 AR. You can walk into a boss chamber and quickly blow 6 CSSs through him, followed by another 6 SS and the fight is pretty much over at that point. They are fast and have a very short cooldown. I did this recently with the twin pursuers and it wasn't even a fight.

My argument is, therefore, that sorcery is better offesively due to its speed and stackability: in other words portential for dps.

Also, sorcery a clear winner in terms of offensive spells for PvP. Whether or not the support miracles are worth it for PvP is another argument.

[Cohnway]

Look up the Lightning Bonus of lower Faith and the Magic Bonus of comparable Magic.

Faith at 20 is drastically different than Int at 20. Only when Faith and Int reach 30 do they start to mellow out and they become equal at 40. This plays into an obvious attempt to further nerf the power of early Lightning Spears. Coupled with the painful reduction in casts of the Lightning Spears, it is very difficult, but it's not impossible. I've run a pure Miracle Caster, but it took early melee to get there. The key is to locate all the potential offensive miracles you can as soon as possible and leg it to them.

ie. Targray sells Emit Force. Emit Force can be acquired as well after defeating Dragonrider and going to No Man's Wharf. Beat Old Dragonslayer and Dragonrider and acquire a Token (from Huntsman's Copse or Co-op) and you've got two of one very nice offensive miracle. Lightning Spear is a bit tougher to get with. You also have to focus on getting the Ritual Rings. A +1 Southern Ritual Band is right in Brightstone Cove, but you need to beat Najka and the Magus to get it. Northern +1 can be acquired by killing Carhillion.
Faith is, for the most part, best coupled with Melee and used on low-scaling weapons that will benefit from Infusions. It's not easy to get into like Magic or Pyromancy or even Hexes. You have to struggle for your faith. I like it. It's how it should be.

[TrueArchery]

Originally posted by Commander Cohn:

You also have to focus on getting the Ritual Rings. A +1 Southern Ritual Band is right in Brightstone Cove, but you need to beat Najka and the Magus to get it.

Or you just use an Ascetic for both Najka and the Skeleton Lords for the +2 versions of the Southern Ritual Band and Clear Blustone Ring. You can buy/pick them up pretty quickly, and once can be picked as a Starting Gift (one of the more useful ones for this kind of character).

[Cohnway]

Originally posted by TrueArchery:

Originally posted by Commander Cohn:

You also have to focus on getting the Ritual Rings. A +1 Southern Ritual Band is right in Brightstone Cove, but you need to beat Najka and the Magus to get it.

Or you just use an Ascetic for both Najka and the Skeleton Lords for the +2 versions of the Southern Ritual Band and Clear Blustone Ring. You can buy/pick them up pretty quickly, and once can be picked as a Starting Gift (one of the more useful ones for this kind of character).

A very good point, but I leave the Ascetics to people willing to challenge that higher difficulty. There is an obvious and drastic different between NG and NG+ difficulty that not everyone is willing to challenge. Nevertheless, you're absolutely right.

If I may, here is my current pure Miracle Faith caster as of current. I'm experimenting with different builds just to enjoy the variety of the game compared to DS3, but it's obviously viable PvE.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/172662099992862282/5A1328029097AADFCD7758B31C1FCE49DEAA3270/
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/172662099992861449/218944BEF34ECD7595BD111E58FA2C8E2EE780CE/

[KuroVersal]

Offensive miracles always were mediocre at dmg and stays like that in all games compared to int spells for same stat investment. However buffs are pretty good on ds2. I am running non meta paladin type build (~270lvl) and buffs with heals really help in high ng cycles.

[myoptic]

Originally posted by Commander Cohn:

Originally posted by TrueArchery:

Or you just use an Ascetic for both Najka and the Skeleton Lords for the +2 versions of the Southern Ritual Band and Clear Blustone Ring. You can buy/pick them up pretty quickly, and once can be picked as a Starting Gift (one of the more useful ones for this kind of character).

A very good point, but I leave the Ascetics to people willing to challenge that higher difficulty. There is an obvious and drastic different between NG and NG+ difficulty that not everyone is willing to challenge. Nevertheless, you're absolutely right.

If I may, here is my current pure Miracle Faith caster as of current. I'm experimenting with different builds just to enjoy the variety of the game compared to DS3, but it's obviously viable PvE.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/172662099992862282/5A1328029097AADFCD7758B31C1FCE49DEAA3270/
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/172662099992861449/218944BEF34ECD7595BD111E58FA2C8E2EE780CE/

Najka is a pretty easy in NG+. If you use the NPC summons like tarkus, even an inexperienced player will have no problem. Plus the path to reach her is so very easy to kite.

The bone brothers, on the other hand, are more tricky. The red phantoms that appear in NG+ are pretty brutal. Which is too bad because its a much better ring than the one Najka drops.

[Mr.Slevin13]

Sunlight spear is a joke for this much trouble to get it and this much investment into faith.

[Rithm Fluffderg]

Heavenly Thunder melts bosses, ESPECIALLY when they're standing in water. And as far as I know, Sorcery is the only spell school to lack the "random AoE damage in an area around the caster" spell.