Strategies for Efficiency and Alternative Strategies

[battlezoby]

Originally posted by Cat on Linux:

Originally posted by LunaRusalka:

Wealthy captive ,instead of going to my Courtesan lv5 with Cigar in order zone ,he choose to frequent low class W3nch lv3 in Anarchy zone far away from him.

that's called personality :)

UPDATE: Added "And Alternative Strategies" to the name of this thread, because there is more than one way to play. :-)

When first posting this, I've only started my SECOND play-through, so I'm relatively new still, but it seems that the problem with how uses what entertainment is how the queing/reservations work - meaning the people reserve their spot in the building as soon as they decide to walk toward it. I really wish you could kick people out of the slot, the way you can fire workers.

I just finished doing my 2nd run of the mission (I think it's the 5th or 6th of campaign) that lasts eight years and first lets you use your ending stash as your opening treasury for the next mission.

I played for about 10 hours, and ended with about $32,000 in stash, rather than $13,000 the first time through...

But the above was my biggest problem. It's pretty big island and I had it very heavily populated.

But what essentially seems to happen is that someone from the overside of the island, like an oversear or guard notices there that the closest entertainment he wants isn't near him. So he decides to go to one across the map. The game "reserves" his spot by adding him in grey, and keeps it locked up until he can get there.

In the meantime, some people near the building use the service, but being near it, they get their quickly, leave (comparatively) quickly, and this repeats until someone nowhere near the building reserves the slot and fills it up.

So the spots start filling up more and more. Eventually, all the slots are full, so everyone tries to get a free slot, and just grabs the first slot that opens. Since works by the individuals choices, and not by the building or player, there is nothing (at I least I don't think there is) to try to line up the closest person to the building, so there's a good chance it's not near them, and the slots stayed filled up, and people just use whatever entertainment they can get.

I didn't live the starting positions of the original docks, not enough space for entertainment and factories, so I demolished them and move to the other side of the island, so I could try to keep everything close together, which really helps get my efficency up. But incoming pirates still end up going to the building farthest from them, and since you can't move the Palace, I had to either let the guard decide to walk across the island, or fire them all and risk getting my head cut off.

The pirates on my ships tended to have similar problems caused by this... the crew wanders off to not-near buildings and the nearest pirates aren't assigned to the ship. But fortinately, unlike the entertainment buildings there is some control over this. You give the boarding call, and pirates start walking toward the ship. But then, when I see that some aren't going to show up anytime soon, I pause the game, Shift-click them one to remove them from the crew, turn off the boarding call, unpause it BRIEFLY, and set a new boarding call with hopefully better crew. Off course, I often ended up repeating this process and, despite that, send the ships off without a full crew due to the long waits.

* - In theory, you can remove people from the building by firing the help (Shift-clicking or setting the building for demolition.) But then it's hard to control how will refill those job-slots, and you get a new badly planned customer base again much of the time.

In hindsight, I really liked try to optimize my entertainment, both to keep the pirates happy (not rebelious) and run up the value of my wealthy captives. By in hindsight, it's a lot of work, I still can't get system to work well, and I think I'd collect more stash if I just kept sending ships out set on "Harass Them" then and trying to keep the island population down.

As is, most of the Wealthy Captives I sold were sold to make space in the entertainment buildings, and I even repeatedly betrayed my Spanish pirates just to get rid of them and make more spaces in the entertainment buildings. (I had a French and two English Captains, so Spanish seems like the only viable option. As is, I was running four docks and four ship with only three captains. Oh... actually that was another trick, hire a Captain and he'll move to a Captainless ship, both moving the destination AND resetting the crew roster.)

Of course, captains that are wandering off are the worst if you don't have enough of them. I often try to buy captains early, so I can fire ones busy stashing or "wenching", and hopefully the extra captain(s) are closer by.

Note: This thread was "Spun-off" of an earlier thread.

[Thalassophobia]

One of the most useless building is Pirate house ,in my opinion.
They all need housing for their stashing happiness.
...Which you don't really have to mind it at all.
Even in the maximum difficulty setting ,
if you can satisfy their other need ,you can leave that stashing happiness at 0.
What make it worse is there is a bug that occur sometimes.
Some pirate with 0 gold or too low on gold to stash won't sleep.
So that's another happiness down.

And since it can't be deleted and randomly assigned...
Not gonna waste your time and space to build them.
Wasting your space to please just 1 random pirate??
...Nope lol

It's just like Churches in Tropico4. I don't build them at all.
People can praise their god in my jails.

Cool stuff ,though ,there is a bug that teleport your pirate back to their home time to time when their happiness is low.

[Thalassophobia]

For my strategy to deal with the randomness of character in this game is
to cut all their choice to random as much as possible.

When I can build the highest level possible building ,
I'll delete all of the lower level building in that class.

When I can build Inn ,I replace smuggler's dive and cheap eatery with Inns.
When I can build Casino ,I replace Animal pits and Gambling den with Casino.
The only exception is Brothel and Salon because they're space saving.

Set them to the price that make their customer bleed money.

And for the wandering far away trouble ,
I tried cramming my pirate building around the center of my island instead of industrial buildings.
They all have to walk to the center for their entertainment.

The problem from this method is ,
some pirate might get mad and kill several captives along the way to pirate zone.

[battlezoby]

Originally posted by LunaRusalka:

One of the most useless building is Pirate house ,in my opinion.

Actually, I've found it's often nice to have a Captain have a house near the docks. Sometimes helps keep him/her close, and for reasons I'm not sure of, the Captains are often the riches and the most unhappy pirates. So letting them stash is really good.

I've found that the first lots available OFTEN good to the Captains if they're not at sea. As far as when prime-locations spots go to other pirates... when... I often tolerate this happening a little bit. But the other option is save/restore "abuse"... save the game, make a plot, if it doesn't go to the Captain or whoever you want to take it, restore and try again later.

I've also discover that it you "demolist" a home, it tends to not get demolished, but rather condemed and then reassigned to another pirate if it's condemed status is revoked. It also seems like evicted pirates are low or last on the list to get new ones. Which is good for trying to get a Captain or Officer their first plot in the right place, but really bad if you try to move a Captain because they never seem to be take a new plot of land afterwards.

[battlezoby]

Originally posted by LunaRusalka:

It's just like Churches in Tropico4. I don't build them at all.
People can praise their god in my jails.

Yea, I keep saying one of the best parts of Tropico 4 is that you can do things your own way. I tend to keep try religious happy after a while, and just ignore the ecologists instead. I tend to run a 0-prisoner population after a while T4, but that can mean either keeping everyone happy, or just shooting the trouble-makers. It's not like you have to have a democracy is most scenarios.

Getting back to Tropico 2, I wonder how many silly alternatives there are here, and have suplimented the title of the thread accordingly.

I've already been torn between the "serious" question of making most of revenue by entertaining Wealthy Captives for high prices vs. lots of Cruise plunder and perhaps selling Wealthy Captives right away in order to keep the entertainment buildings available for the pirates.

But really silly side, and sort of wanting to see if this can be played like Tropico 1/4/5 (I haven't done 3 or 6 yet, I'm wondering if/how-many scenarios I could do ok at by ONLY getting revenue from the Smuggler cove. It might be impossible to even keep the treasury non-negative, but I can't be sure until I try (and not even then if I can't do it, but might be missing some trick.)

Aside, from picking one or more of their needs to neglect, are their alternatives you've tried or considered in this?

Oh... another thing with the houses is sometimes the mission is so long and I have so much lumber and so many pirates, I don't see a reason to not give them lots and lots of houses on a remote part of the island. Just swap them off the crew manifest until you get someone near by (except the Captains, which as I said, I try to house only near the docks if at all.)

[battlezoby]

Originally posted by LunaRusalka:

When I can build the highest level possible building , I'll delete all of the lower level building in that class. [...]
I tried cramming my pirate building around the center of my island instead of industrial buildings.
They all have to walk to the center for their entertainment.

So far, I've liked to keep the lower-class buildings near the docks, because the buildings are so small. Inns, and Brothels are so large, it's annoying to even watch pirates walking the length of the building (although I obviously try to keep the buildings facing the docks.)

I've tried to make it so that the big buildings are mostly for the Wealthy Captives, and Land-Lubers. One strategy that seems to help "Zone" the Wealthy Captives is Hotels, since Hotels attract ONLY Wealthy Captives and don't have to manned by any service people, so it's been helpful (only partially though) with respect to pulling the Wealthy over to the other side of the island.

Note: Obviously some pirates want the best quality entertainment too. So I put the compact buildings near the docks, and the high-class stuff just past that. Then, I added the hotels and Wealth-Class-intended groups elsewhere.

As far as "the middle of the Island"... *gasp*... that seems like an awefully long way for them to walk. I ussually consider a 1/4 the length of the island way too far, but manage to keep most or all of the entertainment there (but not the non-captain home.)

Do you keep many Wealthy Captives around, or do you sell them right away to make space?
Like I said, I've tried it both ways, in one case, even repeatedly betraying my Spanish Pirates just to keep the island popular down.

Btw... I was wondering if there was a good way to try to get excess and/or unhappy pirates killed at sea? Obviously the really dangerious areas should be the best to kill them off. I suppose I could send them there with "Board 'Em" and "Walk the Plank" set.

[Thalassophobia]

Originally posted by battlezoby:

Originally posted by LunaRusalka:

It's just like Churches in Tropico4. I don't build them at all.
People can praise their god in my jails.

Aside, from picking one or more of their needs to neglect, are their alternatives you've tried or considered in this?

Make all my pirate happiness full ?
That's possible in Easy mode with low population on my island.
That way ,you would have enough housing for every pirate.
To satisfy their stashing happiness.

But you know ,
I'm a Pirate King. Not a Saint.
My job is to make my own stash bloom with gold by using those sea dogs.

I'm wondering if/how-many scenarios I could do ok at by ONLY getting revenue from the Smuggler cove. It might be impossible to even keep the treasury non-negative, but I can't be sure until I try (and not even then if I can't do it, but might be missing some trick.)

Smuggler Cove ,has only 1 hauler.
That hauler will go to an industrial building with extra product.
(Product in the building store exceed 15 or 17 if I remember it right)

Of course ,you can survive with just selling things to Smuggler Cove.
And the revenue isn't too bad if you sell a lot of Cannon.

Once ,in a run ,I tried to survive by relying solely on Smuggler Cove. (Sandbox)
It's possible with some Pirate King setting.
(Like free engineer or free trader at the start)

Without both ,
With 2000 gold ,I can build a Snow ,send it to get 1 trader.
Build a Smuggler Cove and Sell A LOT of beer.
I need like 4-6 Breweries just to get some gold as income....
(And enough corn to feed them)
When I have enough cash ,send my boat out to get an Engineer.
Thing get a lot better after the first Cannon Foundry is built.

So ,yes ,you could do OK with just Smuggler Cove and a boat.

Also ,in Chaos ,you need enough Pirate to guard your island from escapees.

Oh... another thing with the houses is sometimes the mission is so long and I have so much lumber and so many pirates, I don't see a reason to not give them lots and lots of houses on a remote part of the island.

If I have extra time and lumber ,I would use them to make more building like Inn instead.
Or just turn off my Timber camp and Sawmill.

Housing near dock ;
When you have 5 docks far apart from each other ,
how long will a pirate has to run to their house when your ship dock in a dock far away from their home?

And when they stash their gold ,it's forever lost.
You can't retake it.
That lessen your income to develop your island by a lot.

It's up to your style of play.
But I wouldn't do that.

[Thalassophobia]

So far, I've liked to keep the lower-class buildings near the docks, because the buildings are so small. Inns, and Brothels are so large, it's annoying to even watch pirates walking the length of the building (although I obviously try to keep the buildings facing the docks.)

They're large ,but they generate a lot of profit. It's worth to invest my money and space for them.

I've tried to make it so that the big buildings are mostly for the Wealthy Captives, and Land-Lubers. One strategy that seems to help "Zone" the Wealthy Captives is Hotels, since Hotels attract ONLY Wealthy Captives and don't have to manned by any service people, so it's been helpful (only partially though) with respect to pulling the Wealthy over to the other side of the island.

Hotels are pretty much unused when you build an Inn.
Wealthy Captives will visit Hotel when they need to refill they rest happiness.
But Inn refill Grub ,Grog and Rest in one go.
So very few will visit Hotel.
Maintenance and wide area required for the building make me avoid making it.

Note: Obviously some pirates want the best quality entertainment too. So I put the compact buildings near the docks, and the high-class stuff just past that. Then, I added the hotels and Wealth-Class-intended groups elsewhere.

Most likely that low rank pirates with money on their hand will go to a building that give out the most point to refill their need (Not happiness) ,without taking the debuff of rank into their consideration.

When they don't have anymore money ,they'll use the lowest price ( 0 gold ) building.

This... isn't too bad for low rank pirate.
But what about mid rank pirate?? Both options can't give them happiness.

So I have only the highest rank building on my island.
If a pirate can't use them because he doesn't have enough gold ,
I just donate him the money.
He'll rank up with the money I donate to him ,
and become happy with the high rank building eventually.
So no point to bother making the variation.

Do you keep many Wealthy Captives around, or do you sell them right away to make space?
Like I said, I've tried it both ways, in one case, even repeatedly betraying my Spanish Pirates just to keep the island popular down.

End game ,I have like 50-100 wealthy captive roaming my island.
I ransom them when they reach 5 grand ,at least.

I have ton of Inn and Casino at that point.
(Some Brothel ,and very few Courtesan)

Btw... I was wondering if there was a good way to try to get excess and/or unhappy pirates killed at sea? Obviously the really dangerious areas should be the best to kill them off. I suppose I could send them there with "Board 'Em" and "Walk the Plank" set. :presidente:

I choose to assassinate them on land instead of risking my other crew and ship to die along with them.

Really ,not worth the risk.

If the whole ship is unhappy ,that's probably my own fault in my management.

[battlezoby]

Originally posted by LunaRusalka:

When you have 5 docks far apart from each other...

Nope, never. Well... at least not any more.

I've started to be really quick to demolish the original docks if I don't like them and always build new ones close together. All five or more on the far side of the island if that's the only place with a good beach. (Unless some non-mission games have islands without any good beach placements.)

Good point with the one hauler for Smugglers... got me thinking that maybe a Cannon-based economy might be the way to do a non-Cruising economy. :-) 12 Mines, 9 Furnaces, and however many Cannon Factories it takes to utilize that pig iron (and you need lumber for cannons too.)

Actually, might be a big fail if the hauler keeps insisting on getting fruits and beer instead, but if you have unskilled captives, you can just fire them everytime they go the wrong way and hope for an improvement.

Thanks for replying with so much (again,) but I gotta get some "work" done... I'll be back to reply more later. :-)

[Thalassophobia]

Originally posted by battlezoby:

Originally posted by LunaRusalka:

When you have 5 docks far apart from each other...

Nope, never. Well... at least not any more.

I've started to be really quick to demolish the original docks if I don't like them and always build new ones close together. All five or more on the far side of the island if that's the only place with a good beach. (Unless some non-mission games have islands without any good beach placements.)

There are maps that you can't place your dock near each other.
(I'm not saying about campaign)

You must have island with good shoreline.
That is ,not available for all map.

[Thalassophobia]

Originally posted by battlezoby:

Originally posted by LunaRusalka:

When you have 5 docks far apart from each other...

Actually, might be a big fail if the hauler keeps insisting on getting fruits and beer instead, but if you have unskilled captives, you can just fire them everytime they go the wrong way and hope for an improvement.

There are things that will be sold at Smuggler Cove.
Beer ,Rum ,Pastries ,Cigar and Weapons.
No need to be afraid of your hauler will get fruits like Banana or Papaya.
And as I mentioned before ,
they won't go to any building with no excess product in its storage.
(More than 15 or 17 ...can't remember)
So if your brewery is drained by your Smuggler Dive ,Cheap Eatery or Tavern ,
they won't take the beer.

Actually ,I don't make Commodities at all :)

[battlezoby]

Weird... it seems that new tress never grow, even though it seems like they do.
I did the "Pirates Paradise" scenerio, which takes 20 years, and noticed all the trees were gone by the end, even though I only get down MOST of them.

So, I ran restored an earlier save and demolished all my Timber camps (although ( admit I kept the sawmills.) Then, "like watching paint dry," I ran the game at full speed and just watched.

No new trees sprung up, even near existing trees. In fact, many of the tress just seem to suddenly disappear with no-one near them, perhaps dying of old age.

Tress clearly grow at the start of a scenario. And I think there are white little dots which are effectively saplings that grow into tress. But I think no new trees appear ever... it's just the originals that get bigger before they die.

So that's probably a big issue if you ever try to play for 200 years, like I often do in T4. I've started to make a habit of dumping (Free!) timber camps all over the map very early, and putting huge amounts of wood into the timber camps to clear for farming and save the wood before it disappears. Then I close off the job slots for many of the timber camps and just use them to store wood, but again, it seems like after a while, all the trees are gone, even if you don't remove them yourself, and you don't get them back or new ones.

[Thalassophobia]

Vegetation level of the map ,maybe?

[battlezoby]

Originally posted by LunaRusalka:

Vegetation level of the map ,maybe?

Doubt it. That's probably the starting amount, including young plants; I doubt that setting can change it to actually grow new plants during the game.

[battlezoby]

I just achieved the mission goals for the The Jolly Roger (roughly the 11th mission) in the First month of the first year on my 2nd play-through. So I'd say that's pretty efficient. I'm discovering more and more tricks to use/"abuse" in this game.

But the game waited from January to April to acknowledge the victory. ($5000 stash, 50 pirates, and "near two thirds level of Pirate Satisfication" [which had risen to 78% by the time the victory triggered.])

I consider myself to a lot more innovative than most people, but I'm sort of surprised that at least one of the tricks that I used to pull it off weren't found and adjusted during Alpha or Beta Testing, since I've only done one a half (extended) play-throughs and about 3-6 sandbox maps so far.

I'm pretty sure the few-month delay on the victory condition happened on my first (more conventional) play-through as well. I remember it being disconcerting in that it took long enough to trigger that I became worried that it might be broken, or that I had perhaps misunderstood the victory requirements and I wasn't going to win.

BTW... now that I've said it was possible, people could consider it an "achievement" or puzzle and see if they can figure out how to win "The Jolly Roger" that quickly. It didn't involve any hacking or anything that can't be done with the normal controls in-game. I did have the benefit of a large stash at the end of the previous map.

[Hurricane Andy392]

Explain how you won the scenario in a month.