Complex Systems?

[Plushie]

Are there any plans to allow us to really break out the full Lego toolkit such as gears, motors, and other complex pieces and freely build with and interact with them? If so, this will officially become the greatest game in the history of the universe.

[Saaturo]

I agree, but why stop with LEGO Technic? I would love to see LEGO Mindstorms brought in to LEGO Worlds! I can just imagine building my own robots to roam and crawl around.

[Plushie]

Honestly, imagine being able to build all the Lego stuff of your dreams within this game? Maybe they are concerned that level of depth would impact sales of the physical lego products if we were given an infinant Lego chest without any limitations.

[CommanderRed]

This has been brought up before, and has nothing to do with virtual bricks vs. physical bricks. The difficulty of programming all the bricks is what holds them back - it may not even be possible to get complex bricks to function on medium to low end systems.

[Plushie]

Originally posted by CommanderRed:

This has been brought up before, and has nothing to do with virtual bricks vs. physical bricks. The difficulty of programming all the bricks is what holds them back - it may not even be possible to get complex bricks to function on medium to low end systems.

The notion of components such as gears and moving parts being overly complex for even the most humble CPU to handle is absurd. The framework for even the most complex virtual Lego creation bursting with movement and interacting parts is nothing more than rudimentary math, something a computer is obscenely good at doing. A punched card computer from the 1960’s could trivially tackle the formulas required for a gear spinning a second larger gear and in turn spinning a wheel. If you want to see math in video games then a real example would be something like Forza or Project CARS, where downforce, centrifugal force, weight, spring stiffness, tire width, tire pressure, gear ratios, and hundreds of other variables are all computed in real-time before even considering the figurative and literal explosion of math and physics that is collision. You are in essence stating that a super-calculator is weak in the department of math.

Allowing us to use the full Lego toolset is actually a pretty humble request; there are multiple Minecraft mods (as in USER created content using a Java based game of all things as its foundation) to bring gloriously immersive and complex systems such as energy generation and distribution, advanced principles of electrical and computer engineering, and a multitude of other robust and immersive systems. And Minecraft itself is an abysmal game, a brilliant and wonderful idea but the nuts and bolts are embarrassingly laughable; Java is not the language of choice for AAA game developers for a reason. Still it gives us large scale dynamic destruction, moving parts, and complex systems – I feel it should be an absolute given that the infinitely more talented and experienced developers working on Lego Words aim higher in regard to depth and functionality than a game birthed by a lone Java coder in his apartment.

As for the difficulty of programming all the bricks; difficult? Not especially. Time consuming? Certainly. This game has the potential of being what Minecraft should have been but its creators weren’t talented enough to achieve. Imagine building whatever you can imagine, truly whatever you can conceive. Giant complex machines, railways, cities. Imagine natural disasters or man-made calamities destroying towering structures sending debris showering down in a multicolored deluge. Imagine a threat, a legitimate persistent threat in the world that forces you to take care when gathering essential resources only to retreat to your hand crafted hardened fortress. Imagine that fortress is assailed by some terrible and formidable enemy and you are forced to defend it with pitfalls and battlements of your own design and creation. Imagine choosing to power your stronghold with some high yield but unstable resource such as radioactive material; having to build and maintain all the complex systems that go along with that and having to resolve an issue when it naturally arises or having to deal with the consequences of a massive destructive event that leaves everything you created a smoldering wreck? Imagine you escaped this calamity just in time and are now forced to rebuild in the face of overwhelming and mounting odds, your enemies and even the worlds elements tightening the noose as you race to build anew?

This game has the potential of capturing the very essence of imagination in a bottle. This game has the potential of making every make-believe Lego adventure we ever experienced as we fought through the pain of rug burn as kids come to life and actually play back. This could be, without hyperbole, the greatest game ever created and as such I for one find “the difficulty of programming” a little hard to swallow. I logged into Lego Worlds the other day, used a Lego gun to shoot out a pre-built lighthouse, and then exited the client. Lego World developers, please don’t be afraid to dream. The child inside me is counting on you.

[Saaturo]

There is a game "Medieval Engineers" which already have all simple machines: gears, wheels, catapults etc.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/333950

[CommanderRed]

Originally posted by Plushie:

You are in essence stating that a super-calculator is weak in the department of math.

I was more speaking about the GPU side of things. The CPU could easily handle the math - they have more complex things in-game already. But the rendering produces relatively low frame rates as it is.

Allowing us to use the full Lego toolset is actually a pretty humble request...

It may sound simple, but in fact it's not. I've read almost every post the developers have made,and the way the tools, the generation, and the explosions all work would make this request difficult at best. All of us would like all of the bricks, but because of technical limits - the developers have stated themselves - I doubt it will happen.

As for the difficulty of programming all the bricks; difficult? Not especially...

Because of the way tools and items can interact with the terrain, and because the game has to hold millions of bricks, it's very difficult - not just long - for the programmers to make it wok; while the game is still playable. This is something the developers have given some insight into, and they've explained that it's a lot harder than it would seem.

This game has the potential of capturing the very essence of imagination in a bottle.

I assure you the developers are working very hard to add as many bricks as they can, while - perhaps more crucially - adding game-play and other important features. Like I've said, everyone - including the developers - would like all the bricks, but because they want low, as well as high end systems to be able to run the game, it looks like that won't happen.

[CommanderRed]

Originally posted by Saaturo:

There is a game "Medieval Engineers" which already have all simple machines: gears, wheels, catapults etc.

I understand, but this is LEGO Worlds - the render code and mechanics system is very different. The difference is that you can build brick by brick, but each of those bricks takes part in a larger mesh that can be altered by the landscaping tools.

I'm sure that's a cool game, but it doesn't mean it's anymore possible to happen in LEGO Worlds. They could, perhaps, use an alternative method for gears and the like. Which, could add some possibilities.

[Plushie]

Originally posted by CommanderRed:

I was more speaking about the GPU side of things. The CPU could easily handle the math - they have more complex things in-game already. But the rendering produces relatively low frame rates as it is.

A model is a model, a gear takes no more work for a GPU to render than any other object. Putting in complex systems such as moving parts, train rails, pulleys, ect has nothing at all to do with what a GPU can and cannot reasonably render. If you set out to make a block building game using the most crude, inefficient, and resource taxing methods possible not only could you have complex systems, trains, mechanical gates, ect work without issue, but you will have made Minecraft. You are stating that Lego cannot do what Minecraft successfully did 5 years ago using JAVA. You seem to be utterly confused between "can't" and "won't". If a developer on this forum really stated they cannot do the things you are referring to, what they were actually stating is that they choose not to rival the development efforts of amateur Minecraft modders using Java-that is just plain sad. Please stop arguing the impossibility of things that have already been done with far less experience and resources, it’s nonsensical.

If we cannot build anything more complex than a cabin then it's time to rebrand the game Duplo World. I don't want to "spawn" a Lego car, I want to build one myself. If the ambition of Lego Worlds is to be a watered down and alarmingly simplified version of a game released five years prior then I really don't see the point and struggle to see how you seem so completely accepting of such a proposition.

[CommanderRed]

The fact is LEGO Worlds is many times more complex than Minecraft already. It is perfectly possible to make a props that animates - take the doors as an example - but getting the terrain bricks to animate is very, very difficult. The bricks are stored in a complex optimized code; just to keep the game playable. Trying to make that optimized mesh move or rotate, could be very challenging.

It's perfectly possible to set up a gear system in LEGO Worlds, but it couldn't alter the terrain. So it would have to have separate props to alter instead.

Originally posted by Plushie:

If the ambition of Lego Worlds is to be a watered down and alarmingly simplified version of a game released five years prior...

The games build system is already much better than Minecraft's - assuming that's the game you mean. I've played both Minecraft and LEGO Worlds and I enjoy LEGO Worlds more - and yes, I have played modpacks and severs. It's just that slopes and several times smaller bricks is more fun for me when it comes to building. Also, I don't hope to see this game follow in the footsteps of Minecraft, nor surpass it. I hope the game takes its own route, and becomes the great game it is on the track to be.

[adrver]

Originally posted by Plushie:

Originally posted by CommanderRed:

I was more speaking about the GPU side of things. The CPU could easily handle the math - they have more complex things in-game already. But the rendering produces relatively low frame rates as it is.

A model is a model, a gear takes no more work for a GPU to render than any other object. Putting in complex systems such as moving parts, train rails, pulleys, ect has nothing at all to do with what a GPU can and cannot reasonably render.

Wrong. A gear is much more difficult to render due to the increased amount of polygons and the complex lighting. A rotating gear would be even more difficult.

I'm not saying it's impossible. But you have to remember there's a tradeoff between complexity and performance. And don't compare LEGO Worlds to Minecraft. The underlying code is (most likely) very different and the developers have to tackle completely different problems.