Cheating AI?

[andrew]

Whether the AI cheats or not is a major talking point of Gems of War.

Here are out thoughts on the AI...

--------------------------------

We do NOT make the AI cheat, or purposely give the AI an advantage. We never did with the original Puzzle Quests, we never will with Gems of War.

The gem drops for the AI are using the exact same probability as the player. The only cases where this is different is for new players (under level 15) where we actually make sure the AI doesn't get too many lucky drops (see patch notes 1.0.2 http://gemsofwar.com/patch-notes-1-0-2/)

The AI should have the same luck as you, but of course there are still times where it gets lucky. Sometimes when I'm playing I see the AI make 3 or 4 4-of-a-kinds in a row and I feel like it's cheating, even though I know it isn't.

You can read more about our findings with recall bias here: http://gemsofwar.com/forums/topic/cascades-and-shuffles/#post-1043

[Jastrzap]

Be sure you won get 25/5 on flipping coin.

[X-the Unknown]

You knnow what they say: "If something LOOKS like it's doing something; it usually is." :)

[Mivo]

Publicado originalmente por SLAYAH:

You knnow what they say: "If something LOOKS like it's doing something; it usually is." :)

Yep, just like the earth is flat and the sun revolving around it. ;) Human perception is very unreliable, and it gets worse when you add in ego and pride.

[X-the Unknown]

Publicado originalmente por Mivo:

Publicado originalmente por SLAYAH:

You knnow what they say: "If something LOOKS like it's doing something; it usually is." :)

Yep, just like the earth is flat and revolving around the sun. ;) Human perception is very unreliable, and it gets worse when you add in ego and pride.

Can YOU prove the earth isn't flat? All you've ever seen is pictures in a book or tv. I suppose you're one of those that believe everything they read and see on tv. hahha

[Mivo]

Publicado originalmente por SLAYAH:

Can YOU prove the earth isn't flat?

There we have it. SLAYAH believes the earth is flat and the Gems of War AI is cheating. QED. ;)

[X-the Unknown]

Publicado originalmente por Mivo:

Publicado originalmente por SLAYAH:

Can YOU prove the earth isn't flat?

There we have it. SLAYAH believes the earth is flat and the Gems of War AI is cheating. QED. ;)

I didn't mention anything about my beliefs. I merely asked YOU to PROVE it's not. ;) But, yes I do believe the AI cheats as so do many many others. The GoW chat channel is full of them. Almost on a daily basis.

But, now I will leave you to your delussions as I know anything I say won't get through into your thick skull as you are blinded by what some book told you, or your parents before that or some tv show or the internet. Have you ever proven anything for yourself? Do you always rely on others? If you didn't play games so much you might learn to question things more and be more intelligent. :)

[Mivo]

Publicado originalmente por SLAYAH:

I didn't mention anything about my beliefs. I merely asked YOU to PROVE it's not. ;) But, yes I do believe the AI cheats as so do many many others. The GoW chat channel is full of them. Almost on a daily basis.

But, now I will leave you to your delussions as I know anything I say won't get through into your thick skull as you are blinded by what some book told you, or your parents before that or some tv show or the internet. Have you ever proven anything for yourself? Do you always rely on others? If you didn't play games so much you might learn to question things more and be more intelligent. :)

I don't see the point of exchanging personal attacks, so let's get back on topic.

I mentioned previously, a year or more ago, that I'm quite familiar with backgammon, backgammon AI, and novices and experts playing backgammon. I learned a lot about perception and perspectives as part of that. When I started playing backgammon against computers, I was convinced the machine was cheating, because how could it so often get just the right dice rolls that it needed to bring its men home or to hit mine? And it would always get those doubles, stealing a certain victory from me. It all lined up for the machine, and it didn't for me. I was good at the game, why did I get owned? I should win at least half of the games, backgammon after all wasn't rocket science! It seemed like the most obvious thing to me that the backgammon AIs (Snowy, GNUGo, back in the day) were plainly cheating.

Eventually, after I was losing against other people too and started to admit to myself that maybe the cause wasn't as simplistic as I had assumed (believing that they had loaded dice was a little too far fetched even for me, especially since we used the same dice), I learned more about probability math and strategy, and I slowly began to see that the computer wasn't getting better dice rolls, but that it made better moves consistently and, as a result, overall won more games. It looked ahead and made moves that would maximize the potential of follow-up rolls, based on probability calculations, and not, unlike me, going for the most obvious present move that promised the most gain, but didn't consider the board position and potential dice rolls after.

And when finally I manually rolled physical dice and input the values for both myself and the computer opponent, and the computer was just as "lucky" as it had always seemed, I had to accept that the better player is always "luckier" with rolls.

So this is the background of why I believe that GoW isn't cheating. At the core, it's a simple game of probabilities. Luck, over time, evens out, and is, in the long run, a non-issue. It comes down to choices. GoW is more complex than backgammon because (among other things) the teams are not identical. But over time, I believe the better player (human or computer) will win more games. I'm pretty sure that people typically do win more often than the computer (even when their setup is weaker), but close losses, or games that go south, stick to memory better. The AI isn't all that brilliant, but the teams aren't usually very even.

There is ultimately nothing that the dev can say that will change your mind. Just like nobody could have changed my mind about those backgammon AIs. A ranked player vs. player mode (where players are making each move, ideally with mirrored teams) would probably change the mind of some, though then possibly new accusations would surface ("my opponent paid more money, so the game is giving him better combos!"). For the developer, this is a no-win situation, and he probably knows this and made peace with it a long time ago. He can't post the source code of the game.

[Dorgath]

Publicado originalmente por Mivo:

He can't post the source code of the game.

Well, he can (and actually, I believe they did if anyone bothered to read the past (now) 32 pages of the thread), but really, what good would that do to anyone who already chooses to not to believe? "How do we know that's actually the source code", they'd say.

Your post is a great effort but ultimately futile to those who don't want to believe. Just leave them to "their delusions and thick skulls".

[Daleks]

Publicado originalmente por Mivo:

A sample of 30 tests isn't meaningful. You can flip a coin thirty times and get a result far off from 50%, and that is without any complexity (no additional random elements or controlled factors such as choice of creatures, class, etc affecting the result).

Also, the move suggestion isn't always, or even generally, the best move.

I had to do this test in the missions as it was the same team composition so 4 * 30 = 120 part to follow the indications well we all saw that the blow that the AI indicated was for the advantage in its turn. the results were (out of 30 games): 20 lost / 25 lost / 18 lost and 25 lost, 88 lost on 120 or an average of 22 out of 30 lost. After I conceived that the game little not easy otherwise or would be the temptation to go to the shop to buy keys to have big cards to tanker so that the devellopeurs can make money but try to make us take bladders for lanterns it does not work. one of the good points of this game is that one does not feel but then cpas at all the side pay to wins especially when one falls on LVL 20 with a team of 4 mythical finally it does not prevent me to put them a scraping

[Jastrzap]

Is there even AI or god ? No proof.

[soleil2208]

I NEVER COMPLAIN USUSALLY...but since the update, there is actually cheating ai...it is impossible to be that lucky..it is been a couple of weeks that i had noticed that the opponent always have a lot of cascade, lots of extra turns, his troop ALWAYS devour even with only 40% chance...i don't know why you guys want us to be discusted by the game but even if i am a player for years, i thinking about quitting..i am not having fun no more... i have a strong team, ully boosted and even then, i cannot win no more...my guild was in the top 20 and now, we can't even win challenge...
please fix that..or a lot of people will go back to bejewelled...lolll

[Dorgath]

It's not cheating but the move to Unity brought a little change to the gameplay that seems llke it is... mana surges on +4 matches now and what one player who analyzed the gameplay calls "streakier" gem creation/transforms,

My Kerboros/Kraken devour a heck more than the enemy though (when it's able to). Went 8/10 in one PvP day.

[hades the gravekeeper]

RNGesus ♥♥♥♥♥ me really hard

[The Shoes of God]

Me thinks the lady doth protest too much. But yes the AI cheats and isn't even subtle about it. I admit my sample size isn't significant but if a Kraken doesn't devour it's a minor miracle and if the enemy team supports it letting it get a single match four will ♥♥♥♥ you over and you're virtually guaranteed to lose since it will keep getting them after until your team is done.

[Q]

I "love" how every time before the board goes "no moves" it's me who makes the move and then the AI gets a turn at a freshly set up board, ofc there are allways matches of 4 or more with tons of lucky drops there for it to grab and on more than one ocassion fill its cards all up.It happends a little 2 often for my taste. First I'm winning, followed by "no moves" and look and behold, next moment my troops are all dead.

That is just one ting. If same deck as the AI has is composed and used, it is quite noticable that the deck it's not as good as it is if AI plays it. If AI does not cheat then how can that be then? (Don't say levels and traits because I am speaking of exactly same deck)

And why does it happens soooo many times that AI and I will be left with one card on the brink of death, I will fill its mana and it will be ready to cast it, AI no-whre near it but then it will suddenly fill it due obnoxious amount of lucky drops or even better, skulls will magicaly appear? Stuff like that never happens to me soooo...

And so forth.