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It is annoying of course the lack of mobility is still a pain in the ass and the sword to teleport is definitely annoying.
The difficulty in enemy stepping is getting over the fact that you may think it's difficult. If you're in range to hit an enemy with Aerial Rave, you are probably within the step box, so step! There's a bar of standards, and you're asking for it to remain low, but you know what I'm going to say?
You're never, ever going to learn how to do that cool stuff more skilled players do if you want these things, and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥'s not like we're talking about a multiplayer game you may have to compete or play socially, you can pick up the game, learn it, and set it down, just as quickly. You can pause in the middle of your boss fight, go do something, and pick it right back up.
But if you learn bad habits, you're just going to remain set in those bad habits, this is especially true regarding muscle memory.
You 100% cannot Trick Up while a sword is pierced into the enemy, you just teleport to them. Vergil can't even do the classic Helmbreaker chain anymore unless he hasn't used Summoned Swords at all that fight, and, well, why would you not be using Summoned Swords at any point in your fights? You simply will not end up throwing the moves aside at any point, especially at higher difficulties.
Ah, I hadn't tried it till now I see that the controls are wrong again. They say with just b you can trick up but that's not the case once you have a sword in.
Damn shame.
Never going to learn how to do cool stuff? I'll have to say you're partially wrong on that one. It wasn't until DmC until I started to be interested in JC'ing. I started off using angel pull to keep me in the air, and over time that slowly became less and less interesting as my skill improved. As I got better, I started to play around with jump cancelling. I ended up going back to DMC3 and DMC1 and fooling around with shotgun hiking and basic JC'ing.
I'm still not good at it... but it made me interested to try. That's something DMC4 could have never done. I put 80 hours into DmC, and in that time I platinum'd it. As a comparison, I platinum'd DMC1 as well, but I never went beyond Normal with DMC3 or DMC4. The easier mechanics kept me interested as I got better at the game. The problem with DmC was that it had a lower skill ceiling, which made the combat feel a bit simple once I got good at it (but that's another topic). DMC4 isn't exactly my cup of tea, but Vergil was the entire reason I decided to buy DMC4:SE.
I would never try to learn how to use Inertia or other advanced techniques like that... If I did, I'd have to very slowly work my way up to that level of skill. The only way to do that would be through easy and fun techniques that I could use initially, and then slowly replace them with the more skillful alternatives as I got better at the game.
This isn't true. Else, learning to play Bayonetta or MGR would kill your ability to play DMC. lol.
Yes, it's relevant. They locked Trick Down to DT only and tried Trick Up to the sword link. What they did to Trick Down cannot be read as anything but a deliberate and substantial change to the DMC3 execution. Capcom made a deliberate choice to change the execution of these moves. We are in agreement. Please try to keep up.*
I do not think that word competancy is a real word or comes close to meaning what you think it means.* Please, think carefully about your word choice and truly try to understand what you are talking about.*
So Capcom should never change the positioning moves in any way? That is how sacred they must be?
This is only even remotely relevant to what I said if you then proceed to say "And that objective standard should not ever be changed." It's different than it was in DMC3 is not even remotely in dispute here. Please, pay attention and think about what is being said before you make yourself look so completely foolish.* The question is: Should it have been changed? Should it NOT have been changed? Should it EVER be changed or is DMC3 the gold standard to which all DMCs must hew to with minute precision? With absolutely no other alternate movement powers allowed? Does game balance even matter when making such arguments or are style videos the only sort of metric that matters? (Does difficulty even matter when it comes to DMC at all? it's never been a hard series, hence why the main replayability is style rather than tough fights...)
At least you understood what limiting principle means. You read that much at least.* If a move is overpowered, should it ever be removed, provided it involves more than one button? That's hardly a limit because it allows no other metric than "appears to offer fewer options for a style video"
*I can do catty ♥♥♥♥♥ sniping far better than you and it's just as stupid from my end as it is from you. Knock that ♥♥♥♥ off and I'll do the same.
I would say that the person invoking the golden rule should've been following it in the first place because you've been posting like that the entire thread, but, that's aside from the fact that apparently that debating a point and explaining to someone where they're wrong is catty sniping. You were called an ass (you have been), I explained things, implied others (because I thought they were a given), but...
I made a spelling error in a text box without any spelling corrections, for shame! I'll get the tar, you get the feathers, and we'll just have to cover me. It's simply being opportunistic to point out someone's lack of understanding on the subject at hand!
At this point I'm going to go ahead and point out that Bayonetta's iteration of Helm Breaker can be enemy stepped with exactly the same timing as DMC3 and DMC4, but that's besides the point of neither game playing the same or making full use of the same mechanics.
What you're saying is that virtually every jump cancel is the same, and spoilers, they ain't. Now, they are in DmC, you can hit Helmbreaker after Helmbreaker and it's just the same as doing Aerial Rave, but in DMC3, try to jump cancel Vergil's Aerial Rave with the same timing as Dante's, or Swing with the same timing as Killer Bee, and DMC4 is much the same way.
Enemies react weirdly in DmC, and I will be the first one to tell you that a lot of enemies react weirdly in each DMC, but DmC takes the cake of inconsistency. Knockback attack on a knocked down enemy? Nope! Now it's a launcher! You can't take a lot of the lessons from DmC away to the other games except probably developing confidence to do maneuvers - enemy stepping works, it's functional, and it's actually pretty easy to do, in all the games, you just have to have the confidence to know it works to apply it.
That's a sudden change of tune from the pissant you were being in your earlier posts.
Stinger in DMC3 and DMC4 travel, guess what, the exact same distance. They also deal enough knockback to place the enemy within roughly 1m of Stinger's maximum range. Full House doesn't autotrack, but it's distance covered is exactly the same as Killer Bee's maximum range. Aerial Rave launches the enemy at the exact same angle, with the exact same knockback, as it did in DMC3, and High Time launches with, well, by now you should know the rest. Style moves are the same, too, Skystar travels the exact same distance.
Take a look at the paragraph above and you should have your answer. Taking it to the extremity of saying it should never be changed is laughable, but this implementation of most of those things are completely... I'd just like to say that in my mind, knowing what I know about DMC3, the horse was put before the cart with Vergil, and it happened with Dante too (Six weapons? Really? Dante has a style created for him so he can have a swap-to Aerial Rave to solve the problem that created), but Vergil ends up being ass backwards as you look at him. He has more technical promise than the DMC3 iteration for simple variety of his moveset, but the implementation of these moves leaves an extreme amount to be desired.
Things can be changed for the better, but when all around, they come out as being for the worse, the original comes through - Ugh, I'm stumbling over my mother tongue here: the phrase I want to use is rose colored glasses, but it's more something of a clarity of understanding. You understand why things worked, why they were better, and possibly why they might've been changed, why objectively the original iteration may have been worse, but still better (or more consistently) implemented, but Air Trick's new iteration (including Trick Up and Trick Down) is one of those things that never should've been changed, and, hilariously enough, I'm sure conversations like these are taking place in parallel in other places where the game is discussed. It's one of those sacred things that really shouldn't have been touched outside of giving it that new, sexy, flashy animation which I'll admit Iove. If you're going to dare touch a core move like that, the only change for the better is speeding it up - which in turn diminishes the skill in having to actually think about using the maneuver.
Never was probably a poor choice of words, but for a lot of people, they're probably going to stick to what's easier. I'm going to say that probably the only thing you really got to take from that was, honestly, your confidence. You got the opportunity to know that something works. Pretty much nothing else from DmC applies and most of the moves look the same while not entertaining quite the same function - just one that looks close enough. DmC's Helmbreaker was made to look like what happens when you juggle a devil triggered enemy, without ever understanding how or why the maneuver works.
For you to say something similar afterwards is a hilarious coincidence: you actually use inertia every time you jump and shoot E&I or the Shotgun, or even just Guard in the air. Inertia has been in the series for awhile, we just never had any capability to understand it fully until DMC3's Style Switcher introduced a bunch of moveset changes.
Inertia, as a state, is set by several moves. Every jump is one of them, and a jump will dictate the last setting of Dante's inertia until overrided by another jump or one of the very select moves which effect inertia. That list is, to my knowledge, only containing Skystar if we count the moves we can do in the air - and, well, inertia only matters in the air so...
I'm still not being very accurate: virtually every launcher gives Dante forward inertia as if he jumped when affected by inertia. Now, Full House (as you may know) is one of the moves required to utilize Inertia in Guard Flying, and the manner in which you do that is Full House, Enemy Step + holding the stick in a direction, Guard. Full House/Killer Bee doesn't effect Inertia in any way other than stating it should be active, so when we cancel Killer Bee with Normal Shot in DMC3, we pop in the direction Dante's inertia is set.
So, here's the fun part: every time you ever enemy stepped and then drifted around an enemy with handguns (as I'm sure you've done if you've played DMC3 for a long time), you're actually using inertia to float Dante over to the location. You can actually practice Shot Flying (Popping out of Killer Bee with Normal Shot) in DMC3 to understand how Inertia works, and then use DMC4 to put it into practice with a move that, well, interacts in such a way as to turn Inertia into horizontal movement. That I don't think anyone in the community understands, the only thing I know about it is that the reason why Full House works is because, like Killer Bee, it tells the game that Dante should be fully affected by his current state of inertia at the moment when canceled by moves affected by inertia, we see this, understanding that we normally can't cancel the move without setting inertia.
I'm curious, though. If DMC5 merged DmC's weapon switching system with DMC4's combat, would you still enjoy it? 2 weapons as default (Rebellion, Beowulf as examples), the L2 button for 2 more weapons (Agni & Rudra and Cerberus), the R2 button for 2 more... No style system, but instead those styles are incorporated into the weapons in some way. Each single weapon having a ton of moves. As an example, maybe some of the moves would be:
R1 + Forward + Triangle
R1 + Forward + Circle
R1 + Backward + Triangle
Triangle + Circle
R1 + Forward + Triangle + Circle
etc, etc
Then, on top of that there would be the timed pauses between inputs (eg. Triangle, Triangle, (pause), Triangle), but with more possibilities due to the two attack buttons. Maybe the R2 weapons act as replacements to the styles. A demon shield of sorts that behaves as Royal Guard, and another demonic weapon that behaves as Trickster. Swordmaster and Gunslinger being a part of his standard moveset.
Do you think this would still be enjoyable for higher tier play? Personally, I'm not a fan of the style system or having to toggle through 3 weapons. The biggest issue with this system for me would likely be the awkwardness of pressing R1 and R2 at the same time. It would have to be something for me to completely re-learn since I'm used to keeping only one finger on the back of the controller.
Not really. I'm also not a fan of the swap through system for Dante's weapons, either. The maximum amount of weapons we can effectively swap through is four. Either two guns, two swords, or three of one type, one of the other. Triple Arm Switch (Vergil/Lady's weapon swap) is a perfect example of how to effectively use the systems already present in the game.
Dante suffers from carrying six weapons. Because he's always carrying all of them, it allowed them to be extremely seperated from each other in terms of capability. Gilgamesh doesn't have near the functionality of Beowulf, yet classical Beowulf was highly, highly redundant as I mentioned earlier. Redundancy is both good and bad. In DMC, it's definitely both, because a redundant weapon allows to use it with a tech weapon that has very few redundancies in it, like Cerberus or Nevan.
I'll also admit that Dante's five to six styles are overwhelming as hell at first, especially if you're not used to the fact he's simultaneously wielding six (technically seven, swap-to Yamato as Dark Slayer is pretty much Swordmaster, and Swordmaster is considered an extension of the weapons in the game's logic), but I don't think they should be done away with.
My ideal combat system (and content, too, come to think of it) for DMC5 would probably be a throwback to DMC3 rather than DMC4. Ideally, I'd like to have access to all of Dante's classic ground cancels, weapon swap cancels, and most importantly, Quicksilver and Doppleganger out of the box, built into the game, and not tied into certain rooms - Wall Hike should make a return, too. From there, no character should wield more than four weapons, you should be able to pick a maximum of three of one type and make functional use of the three arm switch (Vergil/Lady's weapon swap). Re-add Devil Trigger Flux/Devil Trigger Explosion, and, here's where a bunch of people are probably going to hate me:
I'd like to have lots of clones, replicants with Call of Duty style extremely minor adjustments that allow for a bunch of weapons in the same class to feel different but be functionally similar, yet radically different simultaneously. Basically, imagine having Ifrit, Gilgamesh, and Beowulf as options for Dante, along with Alastor, Force Edge, and Rebellion, each of them having similar movesets, but with unique tweaks. For example, I would take Straight and give it the drill property. If Vergil with in game, I would use his classic Rapid Slash from DMC3, and again, turn it into a drill property or make it consistently throw enemies in the direction Vergil travelled. Most of the clones would, ideally, have some flavoring that distinctly warps the way classic moves would be used, like Trish's lightning Killer Bee that I can't remember the name of - Inazuma?
If I was really cracked out on customization, I would actually let you apply traits to certain moves. For example, Beowulf's Killer Bee has tremendous autotracking, this could be a trait applied that could be taken off or traded for another one that makes it work without autotracking but is more powerful, or perhaps delivers a launch on ending like Vergil's new Starfall. Maybe a trait that completely changes the knockback property into a launch property but can only be used on certain moves, so on and so forth. A gun customization system would be extremely useful if you could pick between things like having penetration and visible tracers like Lady, or classic hitscan like Dante has had forever, and further options like what the exact nature of certain charged shots is, replace shotgun rounds with things like a powerful version of Dragon's Breath. Basically all sorts of customization you could do at a Statue of Time, giving you a reason to visit those again (There's a certain point in gameplay where I think most players typically stop using these ever) and do stuff, even in the middle of a level, beyond an incredibly quick swap of weapons. Probably a trait page, too, so players would have a part of the game where they could reference the entirety of their build and perhaps save it.
Finally, I'd probably keep wall bounce the way it was in DMC4 (actual wall bounce and not wall splat), and include some form of ground bounce on certain moves mostly to increase variety.
I don't think I'd want to pull anything from DmC that didn't already directly exist in the predecessors. Maybe continue to make the shift between the puzzles to platformer sections, but make the latter not a poor teleport here system, but more of an from A-to-B get there preferably as quick as possible, the difficulty being in the speed like a level from Sonic, and not simply the raw execution like classic Mario, and to that end I think I would want moves like Wall Hike to have some new limitations like X amount of Wall Hikes before requiring a reset. If I was really an ass, I'd probably include a wall run hall that made you enemy step onto enemies on pikes as part of the execution for some bonus weapon or something like Spiral/Nightmare/Artemis.
Having a sword pierced on the enemy, locking trick-up to non lockon moments and locking trick-down to DT form at the jump button was a huge step back to the DMC 3 teleport system, jumping and rolling doesn't fits Vergil's style at all and launching a sword to teleport isn't anywhere dynamic, it's there only to please DmC casual players.
I hope that the modders will fix this big mistake from capcom.
What I'm saying: They deliberately changed it. Therefore, there had to be a reason for it.
What you're saying: Yeah, and the reason is it's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ change only done for casuals.
What I'm saying: Literally the only metric you are using to call it ♥♥♥♥♥♥ is that it isn't like DMC3 which isn't a metric at ALL if you actually want new takes on the game. Do you work at Capcom? If not, please provide some evidence that they made the change for DmC fans only and not because they thought they legitimately mechanic was appropriate. Also, provide the authority by which you claim to be better at designing DMC games than the DESIGNERS OF DMC GAMES.
I understood both of us better than you do.
You don't even understand yourself, what you do is only distorting what people talk to you due to your lack of argument against the facts, it isn't cool to distort what people say in a discussion when you're lacking arguments, it's ugly for you... This teleport system sucks hard because it isn't stylish, it's a huge backstep from the DMC 3 teleport mechanics and it has the no cooldown for the no-fingered casual players who are too lazy to learn how to JC.
You're asking for CAPCOM internal development proofs by talking just like those TW3 fanboys denying the obvious downgrade on the PC version a few days before the release even with the proofs on the table, they went full on the "if the company didn't confirmed and you don't work at X company, then it didn't happened" even with all the evidences slaped on their faces, then CDPR backstabbed them at the release day.
Now I'll ask to you, do you work at CACOM? Because it looks like you work for them to defend their mess too much.
One of the proofs are on the interviews when the devs tells they expect ~11y'old kids playing DMC 4 SE and another video where they tells they grabbed DmC teleport mechanics to put on Vergil for no decent reason at all since the game features a lock-on mechanic, so it's assumed that's to please the newcomers DmC players. I'm not the one to blame for the fact you didn't followed and didn't paid attention in the SE development.
We're dealing with Cacom here, but if you also wanna insist of keep blinded, then go ahead buddy, but try to not distort what people say if you don't wanna get ashamed on the internet.
I've pointed everything that proves that this new teleport system sucks, now try to use arguments to defend the new system, so I can debink it just like I did several times here. I can do this all the day.
Seems like they went for a more balanced route in DMC4, rather than making Vergil a god. Might shatter some fanboy dreams but I think for gameplay it's a lot better that way.
at least his B isn't utter trash like Dante, you'll have to give him that.