Testudo bonuses - why?

[Star Crusader]

Why on Earth does the testudo offer such meaty bonuses in hand to hand combat. The testudo should cause fatigue anmd offer no benefits outside of missile protection. Trying to fight inside a testudo will actually put you at a major disadvantage,

[Lord General Nacho]

Didn't the testudo get largely cycled out of Roman tactics by then anyway? I don't remember much historical use of the testudo past early imperial Rome.

[Yggdrasil]

well testudo is kinda just the idea of protecting your self from arrows in a organize way and that was done in that era as well

[Lord General Nacho]

Originally posted by Osborn:

well testudo is kinda just the idea of protecting your self from arrows in a organize way and that was done in that era as well

I'm talking formally. Not just raising your shields in defense, but the testudo formation proper.

[Mephiston87]

Originally posted by Pvt. Nacho:

Didn't the testudo get largely cycled out of Roman tactics by then anyway? I don't remember much historical use of the testudo past early imperial Rome.

those formations in general all became less common/used around the time plate mail and breast plate were being used by regular troops. No longer was so much protection needed. So at a guess testudo was definately still used around this era.

[Insurgent Korrah]

I'm sure i saw somewhere that Ammianus mentioned that a testudo used by the romans in the battle of strasbourg, although it was probably a formation closer to the shield wall or fulcum

[deathmaster snikch]

Originally posted by Διογένης Κυνικός:

Attacking Testudo is roughly what disciplined Roman cohorts would be fighting as - shield to shield, holding formation. Which should give them advantage in melee. The question is whether Late Roman legions fought that way anymore, since it required lot of training that they no longer had, but that's a whole different topic.
Defensive testudo does not give bonuses against infantry, as far as I recall.

this has nothing to do with training nor lack of money lol they just evolved from the cohortal system, in which the mechanics of the battle was based on the close packed cohorts using pila volleys and gladium for thrusthing hit, to a more phalanx formation, in which the men used spears and more long swords.

[deathmaster snikch]

Originally posted by Mephiston87:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbSa9ZvSMaQ

thats a good example of what a proper Roman formation is supposed to be, you fight for a minute or 2 then a whistle blows and you get to rest all the while bracing eachother from behind so they dont get knocked over. Its one of the major reasons why it was so effective. for obvious reason they didnt need the full testudo(shields above heads) they were only gauls they were up against.

Its obvious the game devs cant make this animation(along with alot of others) so instead they get endless fatigue, same thing just a super lazy way to do it. Romans have some of the worst infantry in the game especially ERE and both get bad archers. I believe yet again its just pure lazyness that they have done this, and im certain there will be a DLC to rework the entire Roman roster.

Assault Testodo doesnt even work, its bugged to crap.

i fail to se how cornuti seniores,Herculiani seniores,eastern auxilia palatina,numeroi and hetareia guards are "WEAK"

[Mephiston87]

Originally posted by Attila the Hun:

Originally posted by Mephiston87:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbSa9ZvSMaQ

thats a good example of what a proper Roman formation is supposed to be, you fight for a minute or 2 then a whistle blows and you get to rest all the while bracing eachother from behind so they dont get knocked over. Its one of the major reasons why it was so effective. for obvious reason they didnt need the full testudo(shields above heads) they were only gauls they were up against.

Its obvious the game devs cant make this animation(along with alot of others) so instead they get endless fatigue, same thing just a super lazy way to do it. Romans have some of the worst infantry in the game especially ERE and both get bad archers. I believe yet again its just pure lazyness that they have done this, and im certain there will be a DLC to rework the entire Roman roster.

Assault Testodo doesnt even work, its bugged to crap.

i fail to se how cornuti seniores,Herculiani seniores,eastern auxilia palatina,numeroi and hetareia guards are "WEAK"

I never said weak i said "some of the worst"

Herculiani seniores are a top range tier 2 infantry unit and are the only real decent infantry they are compedative against most other factions top infantry, Numeroi are basically identical to armoured legio nothing special about them theyr both mid range tier 2 and are not compedative against other factions top tier 2 infantry(Chosen Uars/Herculiani seniores etc etc etc eat them).

eastern auxilia palatina are spearmen not infantry and have identical stats to theyr earlier model Lanciarii Seniores they get 5 damage and 5 defence for double the upkeep and huge cost nearly all other factions have better(especially germanic spear masters will eat 2-1 ratio or worse).

hetareia guards are basically suicide infantry, basically a foot version of shock/heavy cavalry but heavy cavalry do more and last longer, shock cavalry do more but last less = just use heavy cavalry instead for extra mobility and same effect. most factions have theyr own version of hetareia guards that are extremely similar. They are not versatile at all, they charge ONLY other infantry thats all, if you charge anything else your wasting them also they die fast from ranged attacks due to lack of shield.

ERE does not come with good hold the line infantry.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Mephiston87:

Just use heavy cavalry instead for extra mobility and same effect.

Just use heavy cavalry is the solution to most of the Tactical questions I have in this game :)

[Mephiston87]

Originally posted by Lysimarkos:

Originally posted by Mephiston87:

Just use heavy cavalry instead for extra mobility and same effect.

Just use heavy cavalry is the solution to most of the Tactical questions I have in this game :)

its unfortunate but its true lol, atleast for most factions.

[deathmaster snikch]

Originally posted by Mephiston87:

Originally posted by Attila the Hun:

i fail to se how cornuti seniores,Herculiani seniores,eastern auxilia palatina,numeroi and hetareia guards are "WEAK"

I never said weak i said "some of the worst"

Herculiani seniores are a top range tier 2 infantry unit and are the only real decent infantry they are compedative against most other factions top infantry, Numeroi are basically identical to armoured legio nothing special about them theyr both mid range tier 2 and are not compedative against other factions top tier 2 infantry(Chosen Uars/Herculiani seniores etc etc etc eat them).

eastern auxilia palatina are spearmen not infantry and have identical stats to theyr earlier model Lanciarii Seniores they get 5 damage and 5 defence for double the upkeep and huge cost nearly all other factions have better(especially germanic spear masters will eat 2-1 ratio or worse).

hetareia guards are basically suicide infantry, basically a foot version of shock/heavy cavalry but heavy cavalry do more and last longer, shock cavalry do more but last less = just use heavy cavalry instead for extra mobility and same effect. most factions have theyr own version of hetareia guards that are extremely similar. They are not versatile at all, they charge ONLY other infantry thats all, if you charge anything else your wasting them also they die fast from ranged attacks due to lack of shield.

ERE does not come with good hold the line infantry.

they seem fine to me imo theres no need to spoil the game for everyone just becouse one random person said so if you feal they need "tweaks" go download packfilemanager and do it your self

[SMEAGLEBUTCRACK]

In my opinion they can nerf the infantry bonuses that testudo has when they nerf the accuracy of enemy slingers, peltasts, archers and crossbows when firing into a melee.

When ever my Comitatenses break testudo for a melee charge and the enemy have some missile units at the back they will fire into the melee and somehow out of just pure skill and marksmanship begin to wittle down all of my men while killing maybe a handful of their own to friendly fire.

Also I have only noticed testudo really help against infantry when the troops are on highground, when it is open field the testudo does barely anything to change the outcome of a melee unless it is vs cavalry.

[Mephiston87]

Originally posted by SMEAGLEBUTCRACK:

In my opinion they can nerf the infantry bonuses that testudo has when they nerf the accuracy of enemy slingers, peltasts, archers and crossbows when firing into a melee.

When ever my Comitatenses break testudo for a melee charge and the enemy have some missile units at the back they will fire into the melee and somehow out of just pure skill and marksmanship begin to wittle down all of my men while killing maybe a handful of their own to friendly fire.

Also I have only noticed testudo really help against infantry when the troops are on highground, when it is open field the testudo does barely anything to change the outcome of a melee unless it is vs cavalry.

Player units hit boxes are %40 larger, thats why AI missile units are far more accurate and your friendly watchtowers shoot your own troops more often. I have been told there is a mod to fix it, dunno where tho.

Putting it simply the one thing Roman infantry do get is decent armour the rest is mostly mediocre, testudo stops them from breaking formation(adds weight) and getting fatigue = a well armoured slow to die unit(doesnt do much damage tho), it seems the devs want us to use defensive testudo as the anvil and cavalry as a hammer(or another unit).

[Mephiston87]

Originally posted by Attila the Hun:

Originally posted by Mephiston87:

I never said weak i said "some of the worst"

Herculiani seniores are a top range tier 2 infantry unit and are the only real decent infantry they are compedative against most other factions top infantry, Numeroi are basically identical to armoured legio nothing special about them theyr both mid range tier 2 and are not compedative against other factions top tier 2 infantry(Chosen Uars/Herculiani seniores etc etc etc eat them).

eastern auxilia palatina are spearmen not infantry and have identical stats to theyr earlier model Lanciarii Seniores they get 5 damage and 5 defence for double the upkeep and huge cost nearly all other factions have better(especially germanic spear masters will eat 2-1 ratio or worse).

hetareia guards are basically suicide infantry, basically a foot version of shock/heavy cavalry but heavy cavalry do more and last longer, shock cavalry do more but last less = just use heavy cavalry instead for extra mobility and same effect. most factions have theyr own version of hetareia guards that are extremely similar. They are not versatile at all, they charge ONLY other infantry thats all, if you charge anything else your wasting them also they die fast from ranged attacks due to lack of shield.

ERE does not come with good hold the line infantry.

they seem fine to me imo theres no need to spoil the game for everyone just becouse one random person said so if you feal they need "tweaks" go download packfilemanager and do it your self

Not trying to spoil the game mate, im aware in this version of total war basically all troops except Roman get decent boosts(desert spearmen in rags get suprisingly good stats for starving bums off of the street). Attila is clearly for the players who want to play the other side of things, swapping roles basically from Rome1+2. It would be nice to get a bit more of a closer balance tho, if the rest are going to be better atleast give Romans a chance lol.

[Avtokrator]

It's not really a testudo. They just gave it that name. It's simply a shieldwall. CA named it that way for the sake of different names, but calling everything "shieldwall" would not have been bad either. There were no animations like this in Rome 2 though. Men in the front form an actual cohesive "wall" while units in the back raise their shields. "Shieldwall" and "Hoplite wall" looked like ♥♥♥♥ in Rome 2 without animations. Men simply moved close to each other and that's it. No new animations, no "walls". Just men in a tight formation.