Killing Attila and stopping the Huns...

[CROSSEYED_JIM]

At first, I loved Total War: Attila. Now, 45 or so hours in, I'm beginning to run into some serious problems. As I do with all Total Wars (I've played every single one since Medieval 2), I started on easy to get a good feel for the game's changes before ramping up the difficulty. In most Total Wars, this leads to a nice easy win with maybe a couple of good battles. Then I move on to normal or hard. I'm not a fan of legendary because the AI cheats at that level. In Attila, easy feels pretty comparable to hard on other TW games.

After winning a game as the Huns, I've been playing the Ostrogoths. On my first attempt, I settled in Carpathia and began to build. Eventually, I found myself smashed between the Eastern Romans, who absolutely refuse to come around to even a non-agression pact despite me throwing something in the neighborhood of 50k gold at them in gifts, and the Huns. After about 50 turns of a boring stalemate, I abandoned the campaign. I started over, this time determined to do better. I captured eight settlements around the Danube and the Carpathian Basin and relentlessly upgraded them. I built four full stacks of tier two and three units, including champions to add to their experience. I built units until I could barely afford to build even one more. I stationed all of these armies on my borders in such a way that at least three could engage any threat.

This worked okay for a while, and I managed to fend off the Huns until 429. At that point, they marched in with eight (EIGHT) full stacks of armies stuffed with tier three units. At the head of the nastiest stack was Attila himself. I fought an absolutely cataclysmic battle against them (the largest and ugliest I've ever seen in a Total War game) in the mountains and managed to win... barely. Attila was "seriously wounded" but lived, though I still received the "Attila the Dead" achievement. My faction leader, his heir, and one of my best generals all died in the carnage. I have never seen so many dead guys on a field.

I retreated back to my small empire's interior to lick my (severe) wounds, thinking that I'd won the most critical and decisive battle of the campaign. But only six or so turns later, the Huns returned... again with Attila at the head of four stacks of high-level units. I won again, and again killed Attila. This time I lost my northern-most province. A few turns after that, another six stacks of Huns arrived. And there was Attila AGAIN, leading from the front. This time I had three high-level spies attempt to assassinate him, and one of them succeeded--but he was only wounded again. I managed to separate and defeat three Hunnic hordes, one of which belonged to Attila (whom I killed AGAIN), but my armies were nearly wiped out given the fact that the Huns never, ever route and seem to always fight to the death. I still see Attila alive on the diplomacy screen, so I know he didn't really die this time either. The remaining three Hunnic armies are closing in on the heart of my little empire, and there's nothing left to stop them. 135 turns in, and defeat is all but certain. So much for that 12 hours of my life.

I have two questions here:

1. Why in the world am I facing 4-8 stacks of high-level Huns so often on easy? When I play easy mode, I don't expect an overwhelming challenge. I certainly don't expect the nastiest challenge I've ever had in hundreds and hundreds of hours of Toal War. The bottom line is that this is making me not want to play the game. I'm not a great player by any stretch of the imagination, but I've played enough TW to know how to get by. If I'm not able to win on easy, I don't see myself sticking with this game for too long unless a change is made. That's a real shame, because I love everything about Attila and think it's probably the best in series. Or at least it would be if it wasn't so frustratingly difficult.

I want my strategy games to be challenging enough to be interesting, but I have no desire to waste time playing a game that will likely end in a loss despite my best efforts after 10-12 hours on the easiest setting.

2. Why the hell can't I kill Attila? I've read that, true to history, killing Attila results in his hordes dispersing. That would be lovely, and if he'd died the first time I wiped out his unit (to the last man), none of this would be an issue. Attila is only human, and he should die like any other leader when a rain of fire arrows hits him in the face, or when an assassin slits his throat, or when he is run down by heavy Germanic cavalry while retreating. Not being able to kill Attila--and subsequently not being able to actually defeat the Huns--eliminates the sense of hope and purpose from the Grand Campaign, especially for factions unfortunate enough to have to face the Huns in the Danube region. Yes, I know the point of this Total War is survival, not expansion. I like and appreciate that fact. But the absurdly stubborn diplomacy AI and relentless Hunnic invasions make it near impossible to either conquer or ally your way to the region-based victory requirements.

Perhaps removing or tweaking the region requirements for victory and making the game a pure survival challenge would change my thinking. Or maybe a rebalancing of the Hunnic units would help.As of right now, though, it very much feels like the game is rigged. Nothing breaks immersion like a feeling that the game is rigged.

TLDR: The game is unreaonably hard, even for a longtime Total War player playing on easy. Not being able to kill Attila and defeat the Huns makes the game frustrating instead of fun.

[redwitch]

totally agree, though it's a deliberate design decision, the game is simply designed to be frustrating, on the other hand, there seem to be a lot of TW players who like it this way

[Rezkeh]

That experience sounds... pretty disheartening, I'll give you that. I can't claim to speak as gospel here, but I'll tell you what happened to me.

Short version: it certainly is possible to kill Attila so he is dead and buried, subsequently stopping his Hunnic hordes from constantly spawning and setting fire to everything you hold dear. I achieved this playing as the Geats on Normal difficulty in 432 AD, if I remember rightly.

I'm afraid I can't speak for why you got bullied by eight Hun armies at once, in my experience they typically came in groups of three (and once, five, but they were just far enough away from each other to pick off). Were you backed into a corner, perhaps?

---------------

Longer story:

I had severe trouble killing him too, if it makes you feel any better. The way the game seems to work is that the first time you encounter and "kill" Attila once he comes of age (from 420 AD), be it by agent assassination or a military battle, you unlock the 'Attila the Dead' achievement. Confusingly, this by no means at all means that he is actually dead. He is almost definitely fine at this point.

I used an agent to assassinate him. He left the army he was attached to, and I got the achievement, but no alert in-game telling me he was killed.

Thinking maybe that was the wrong way to actually remove him from the game, the next time he stumbled into my lands I engaged him with an army and auto-resolved to victory. He disappeared again, but no alert.

Referring to him now at Attila the Invincible Bastard, I then found him *again* and decided to fight the battle myself so I could watch his little in-game character be stabbed in the face with my own eyes. When it happened, I got a notification (like you did) saying that he had "been gravely wounded" and "surely his next defeat would be his last" and words to that effect.

I was under the impression this entire time that he was able to escape once and then would be killed the next time you beat him. Since I had now killed him three times, surely the fourth would be the charm. (Maybe it only applies to battles you fight yourself? I don't know.)

Lo and behold, the next time I caught him in battle he actually did die. His hordes stopped spawning in my campaign after that, and I managed to finish off the faction for good.

Keep plugging away and hope you get lucky enough to beat him over the head in a manual battle twice, that might just do the trick.

[Zeer0]

First off some ways to help you. 1.Attila can only be killed after 3 attempts on his life.Either through assassins or war.On the 4th attempt as Rezkeh said he will die and the hordes will disperse. And by disperse they mean that the huge stacks of huns will stop spawning.The stacks still on the map must be destroyed.They will not just start losing units.Now for some unit advice.So i use the same strat i did for the mongols in Medieval 2 i would get the huns to siege the city then let them attack me.This worked great cause his horse archers could not freely roam the map.Also pikemen are a great unit towards attila and his horses.They cut his horses into little bits.Hope this helped.

[CROSSEYED_JIM]

Originally posted by Rezkeh:

That experience sounds... pretty disheartening, I'll give you that. I can't claim to speak as gospel here, but I'll tell you what happened to me.

Short version: it certainly is possible to kill Attila so he is dead and buried, subsequently stopping his Hunnic hordes from constantly spawning and setting fire to everything you hold dear. I achieved this playing as the Geats on Normal difficulty in 432 AD, if I remember rightly.

I'm afraid I can't speak for why you got bullied by eight Hun armies at once, in my experience they typically came in groups of three (and once, five, but they were just far enough away from each other to pick off). Were you backed into a corner, perhaps?

---------------

Longer story:

I had severe trouble killing him too, if it makes you feel any better. The way the game seems to work is that the first time you encounter and "kill" Attila once he comes of age (from 420 AD), be it by agent assassination or a military battle, you unlock the 'Attila the Dead' achievement. Confusingly, this by no means at all means that he is actually dead. He is almost definitely fine at this point.

I used an agent to assassinate him. He left the army he was attached to, and I got the achievement, but no alert in-game telling me he was killed.

Thinking maybe that was the wrong way to actually remove him from the game, the next time he stumbled into my lands I engaged him with an army and auto-resolved to victory. He disappeared again, but no alert.

Referring to him now at Attila the Invincible Bastard, I then found him *again* and decided to fight the battle myself so I could watch his little in-game character be stabbed in the face with my own eyes. When it happened, I got a notification (like you did) saying that he had "been gravely wounded" and "surely his next defeat would be his last" and words to that effect.

I was under the impression this entire time that he was able to escape once and then would be killed the next time you beat him. Since I had now killed him three times, surely the fourth would be the charm. (Maybe it only applies to battles you fight yourself? I don't know.)

Lo and behold, the next time I caught him in battle he actually did die. His hordes stopped spawning in my campaign after that, and I managed to finish off the faction for good.

Keep plugging away and hope you get lucky enough to beat him over the head in a manual battle twice, that might just do the trick.

I appreciate the advice. Thanks! I have actually only killed him in a non-auto-calc battle twice. Maybe I need to do it again. Unfortunately, my armies have been totally shattered at this point, and there's no hope of me contending with a zerg stack of Huns to get him.

My issue is that this seems like such a gamey contrivance. I mean, if I kill someone in battle or by destroying an army with auto-calc, that person is dead. My generals don't get second chances if I screw up and wind up in a bad spot--a fact ironically made clear to me through ongoing nasty warfare with the Huns.

I guess my comment on your feedback is this: I don't like feeling as if CA is dictating the course of events in my game. I enjoy TW precisely because I can create alternate histories. If I want to assassinate Attila's father before he's ever born, I should be able to do that. If I want to kill him the second he comes of age (I understand that CA must tread carefully around stuff that looks like child murder in their games), I should be able to that as well. And if I run him down screaming on a field after routing his God-awful hordes and ram a lance through his sternum, I want him dead, buried, and gone forever. Anything less ruins the immersion and choice that definie TW games.

[Zeer0]

I guess my comment on your feedback is this: I don't like feeling as if CA is dictating the course of events in my game. I enjoy TW precisely because I can create alternate histories. If I want to assassinate Attila's father before he's ever born, I should be able to do that. If I want to kill him the second he comes of age (I understand that CA must tread carefully around stuff that looks like child murder in their games), I should be able to that as well. And if I run him down screaming on a field after routing his God-awful hordes and ram a lance through his sternum, I want him dead, buried, and gone forever. Anything less ruins the immersion and choice that definie TW games. [/quote]

Speaking about how Attila cant die. I think its mostly just cause of the games timeperiod and how legends of Attila how no matter what he would survive.Thats the reason that CA made it so Attila was a god among men persay.

[Ninblades]

Attila has 3 lives, OP. You need to defeat him in battle or assassinate him 3 times to kill him off for good. It worked on my campaign & the Huns has been completely wiped out after Attila was dead. You should get an event message telling you that Attila has died once you've managed it.

[Rezkeh]

Originally posted by Crosseyed_Jim:

I appreciate the advice. Thanks! I have actually only killed him in a non-auto-calc battle twice. Maybe I need to do it again. Unfortunately, my armies have been totally shattered at this point, and there's no hope of me contending with a zerg stack of Huns to get him.

My issue is that this seems like such a gamey contrivance. I mean, if I kill someone in battle or by destroying an army with auto-calc, that person is dead. My generals don't get second chances if I screw up and wind up in a bad spot--a fact ironically made clear to me through ongoing nasty warfare with the Huns.

I guess my comment on your feedback is this: I don't like feeling as if CA is dictating the course of events in my game. I enjoy TW precisely because I can create alternate histories. If I want to assassinate Attila's father before he's ever born, I should be able to do that. If I want to kill him the second he comes of age (I understand that CA must tread carefully around stuff that looks like child murder in their games), I should be able to that as well. And if I run him down screaming on a field after routing his God-awful hordes and ram a lance through his sternum, I want him dead, buried, and gone forever. Anything less ruins the immersion and choice that definie TW games.

That seems completely fair to me.

I am under the impression that it is actually possible to eliminate the Huns before Attila comes of age (I think I read somewhere on these discussion boards someone claiming to have beaten them by turn 15), but I am certainly not a good enough player to have a chance at pulling this off. I therefore have no way of verifying that claim, it's just word of mouth.

I can see why CA gave Attila more 'lives' than every other general. He is the title character after all, and to me it would be perfectly believeable that he could narrowly escape death no matter the circumstances one time (three escapes is pushing it). Your argument that he is just another human at the end of the day and should die like the rest of them is also valid in my eyes though.

I'd say it's just down to how much you can suspend your disbelief for the degree of rigging that has been put in to keep him in play. I imagine it won't be long before mods are released that can cater to different preferences here, in your case making him truly killable the first time you encounter him.

If you view your current campaign as lost, then may I suggest you trying playing as the Geats yourself? (If you have the Viking Forefathers culture pack.) They have quite an easy starting position, and I've seen a lot of people have a good deal of success playing as them. Kill the Jutes in turn 1, kill the Danes in turn 2, and you have the province. Stabilise it and replenish your armies, then you are free to go wherever you damn well please. I went to Britain.

If you don't have the DLC for them, maybe try the Saxons too as they've worked out for me in my second campaign. If you want to move West, make defensive allies (or at least maintain non-aggression pacts) with all the small factions like the Rugians, Lugians, Burgundians, Marcomans, etc to your immediate East so they can act as a functional buffer between your empire and the Huns - giving you time to mobilise when they arrive.

[Engellus]

#1 The huns not only have -100% upkeep on their soldiers, but they also generate a new full stack every time one is wiped out. Only while Attila is king, from what i understand. They spawn in the Ukraine and make their way to where you are pretty fast. The Uar Chosen Warriors have 3X the morale of the Legio Comitatenses and the Hunnic... lancers? have a +230 charge bonus or some ♥♥♥♥. Its just some BS that isn't scaled from difficult settings like it should be.

#2 You absolutely can kill Attila, but its hard. Assassins cannot kill him until hes had his invincibility buff knocked off and you receive an event (which AI armies can do, not just you). It will tell you something along the lines of 'while examining the entrails, blah blah blah, considered flight, blah blah blah'. After that event, hes the same as every other character. When he dies you'll get the event about the huns plucking their hair out rather than crying for the loss. Some ♥♥♥♥ like that. Alternatively, he might die of old age. Bad news, since the last update i've seen characters as old as 84, 97 and 104. So 84 years of Attila as king of the huns sounds like some real bad news bears to me.



I have to say though about Attila TW is that its one of those games that they make thats good. It has some mechanic issues like Attila being so OP even on easy. But honestly there are work arounds. Try running battles at 20 min max. 1 stack of tier 1 and 2 can fend off 4 stacks of tier 2 and 3 huns. All you need to do is hide your units in the woods and run the clock. Time runs out, you auto-win. Cheap tactic but good for the less skilled in Attila.

I've played TW since Shogun and its paper soldiers. Every title, every expansion. Attila so far is the 2nd best one i've played. Rome 1 still standing at the top, and one of the ol' paper ones is probably better because of the nostalgia.

[CROSSEYED_JIM]

Originally posted by Engellus:

#1 The huns not only have -100% upkeep on their soldiers, but they also generate a new full stack every time one is wiped out. Only while Attila is king, from what i understand. They spawn in the Ukraine and make their way to where you are pretty fast. The Uar Chosen Warriors have 3X the morale of the Legio Comitatenses and the Hunnic... lancers? have a +230 charge bonus or some ♥♥♥♥. Its just some BS that isn't scaled from difficult settings like it should be.

#2 You absolutely can kill Attila, but its hard. Assassins cannot kill him until hes had his invincibility buff knocked off and you receive an event (which AI armies can do, not just you). It will tell you something along the lines of 'while examining the entrails, blah blah blah, considered flight, blah blah blah'. After that event, hes the same as every other character. When he dies you'll get the event about the huns plucking their hair out rather than crying for the loss. Some ♥♥♥♥ like that. Alternatively, he might die of old age. Bad news, since the last update i've seen characters as old as 84, 97 and 104. So 84 years of Attila as king of the huns sounds like some real bad news bears to me.



I have to say though about Attila TW is that its one of those games that they make thats good. It has some mechanic issues like Attila being so OP even on easy. But honestly there are work arounds. Try running battles at 20 min max. 1 stack of tier 1 and 2 can fend off 4 stacks of tier 2 and 3 huns. All you need to do is hide your units in the woods and run the clock. Time runs out, you auto-win. Cheap tactic but good for the less skilled in Attila.

I've played TW since Shogun and its paper soldiers. Every title, every expansion. Attila so far is the 2nd best one i've played. Rome 1 still standing at the top, and one of the ol' paper ones is probably better because of the nostalgia.

Thanks for the response! I did eventually manage to kill Attila. I got a message after another massive battle saying something about him being defeated and his next loss surely being his last. I officially killed him in the next battle as he attempted to retreat through a mountain pass. All told, it took me 6 attempts (7 if you count the assassination attempt) to actually, finally kill him. It's not clear to me why it worked this time and not all the others. Regardless, the hordes stopped spawning, and I put the ugliest war in my history with TW games behind me.

But you know what? Stuff got pretty boring once the Huns were gone. Without any real threat, I simply sat around building up my income until I could buy alliances and meet the game's victory conditions. In a lot of ways, it was kind of a drag.

I guess what I'm saying is that my previous posts may have been a little out of line. I still think the fight was far harder than it should have been on easy, and I'm still very skeptical of the mechanic that makes Attila nearly impossible to kill. But at the end of the day, TW: Attila just isn't itself without... well, Attila. I see that now.

As to you other point, I'm comfortable saying that despite my previous frustrations with the game, Attila is quickly becoming my favorite Total War of all time. I can't wait to spend more time with it.

[Straybow]

The Attila threat is one of my favourite late game threats in the last couple of total wars. His cheating even doesnt feel to bad for me, as it feels in line with the game, the world is stacked against you as he leads his hordes of devils over the land.


In my campaign I got lucky and he is busy burning every living thing in persia

[Engellus]

Its true that once Attila is gone its not so bad. No one really fills the void. You don't ever get the same sort of threat from the Goths or other barbarian peoples which i think is a problem. Ideally i'd like the -100% upkeep nerfed to -50% or -75%. Maybe in regards to the difficulty setting anyways. But they really need something to fill the gap. If you can kill Attila early in his reign, then what do you have to worry about for the next 20 years? A two town Saxon nation? A shattered West or East empire?

I just wish that there wasn't only a single devestating storm to weather. No idea the cure. But i'm not paid to think about this, so i won't try too hard.

If you want this game to be real fun, try doing a coop campaign with someone. It just takes it to a whole new level.

[Sovietkotek]

Ah, so the hunnic hordes are actually deliberately spawnning infinitely. Unfortunately I was gullible enough to expect more effort from CA when I heard this game was more "developed". Really gotta remember to keep the refund function in mind, or try the game first to make sure it's not ♥♥♥♥ before buying it.

[Zeer0]

Originally posted by ORKS IZ MADE FER FIGHTIN:

Ah, so the hunnic hordes are actually deliberately spawnning infinitely. Unfortunately I was gullible enough to expect more effort from CA when I heard this game was more "developed". Really gotta remember to keep the refund function in mind, or try the game first to make sure it's not ♥♥♥♥ before buying it.

No after Atilla dies the hordes stop spawning. Aka is clean up time.

[Creamy Cakes]

meanwhile I'm sitting here with 400k gold, sniffing my butt as I fund my puppet states to fend off Attila for me. Maybe you need to put some strategy in your fights? :P

[Silent J]

Originally posted by Creamy Cakes:

meanwhile I'm sitting here with 400k gold, sniffing my butt as I fund my puppet states to fend off Attila for me. Maybe you need to put some strategy in your fights? :P

+1