1212 AD Mod What do you build for your cities to prosper ?

[Stinger-9000]

Just got the mod and really confused on what to build to maximise income/public order, the public order seems really tight and I find this very difficult to play compare to other total wars I have played.

Any help appreciated ...

Currently playing as the Kingdom of Scotland

[samael75]

Unfortunately its same as vanilla.Means 4 slots are gone,no choice here.
1.main building
2.sanitation
3.public order (church best,you will also get religion conversion,but if is high try tavern for agents)
4.food (depends on fertility,pick highest yield)
Thats leaves you with 2 slots to play.If you have resource,get that.If not tweak accordingly.Some provinces might need more food due to low fertility,or extra religion influence due to local tradition etc.Theres also some faction specific buildings worth checking.At least one town for military ofc,barracks,workshop or blacksmith.

[rui.silva.incp]

To me its something that they should have changed to go a bit more towards medieval 2.

I know we likely need to live with the limits in how many buildings you need to build.

But they could well not make it so restricted in how you have to balance buildings. That makes it much less fun and much less creative.

The limits can lead you to some province specialization which can be an interesting thing. I see a positive side on not building just the same stuff everywhere. But....the problem is.....because of everything demanding food, public order and squalor.....you always build food, public order and squalor stuff EVERYWHERE. So.....we are back to building all provinces the exact same way.

This is even worse because it takes lots of turns to develop provinces. And lots of money for which you would need to develop economy buildings but....you cant do it early on. So good luck reaching a stage of the game where you can think about specialization. You are looking into an early to mid game where you are just balancing order and squalor by building the same buildings everywhere.

Is this not an issue that most people see????

Or are really most players a bit on the masochist side and like to make things harder just because?

On a side note, I think even AI could work better without such a big pressure on public order and squalor. I see the AI having to deal with revolts everywhere on lower difficulty levels. Ok, this may be working better at higher difficulty levels. But the game should work also on easy. And pretty sure the game could be fun if you gave both the player and the AI the ability to go for better and more troops asap.

Why the limits on top of limits logic???

[Tacticus]

So far its a complete disaster. I have like 7 cities and its sanitation and religious unrest in every province regardless of tax level. I am putting down revolt after revolt, its just not sustainable at all.

Another feature they took out from Medieval 2 was that now agents are limited. Its so annoying i can only have 1 or 2 priests.

Medieval 2 was a perfect game. Instead of improving graphics they tried to change core features and the result has been unplayable garbage.

[Haddon]

Yeah, I gave up on 1212 because of this. The food/po/sani problem for every single city is just awful. I don't know how the devs of 1212 thought this was a good idea. It pigeonholes you into making almost every city exactly the same, and completely removes the fun of building cities how you want. There is almost no specialization. And because there are so many factions with so much realistic political history between them, there are always a lot of enemies nearby, so every city either needs a garrison, or a large force nearby. I don't understand why people are raving about 1212. The work put into it is excellent. Thebalance is worse than vanilla.

[Stinger-9000]

Well to keep you guys updated, you can making it working by building the following combo > Sanitation+Inn(Public Order, this give highest public order)+Church(Public Order)+2x Farm

But its very difficult at the beginning

[rui.silva.incp]

Originally posted by TotalWarKS:

Well to keep you guys updated, you can making it working by building the following combo > Sanitation+Inn(Public Order, this give highest public order)+Church(Public Order)+2x Farm

But its very difficult at the beginning

This is all fine. But good luck if you are coastal and start with small provinces.
If you have a port in there and only 2 available slots.....what do you do?
You can turn the port into fishing and use it instead of a farm.
But no way are you going to have room for Sanitation + Inn + Church + Farm + Farm
That is already 5 slots which with the main city slot is 6 slots.
And in many small provinces you may well have to work with only 4 slots to start with.

Good luck with that.

And how soon will you be able to build something just for fun and to see what it does???
Get a very nice chair because it will take hours till you can explore the building browser.

[FrozenmenBG]

All the posts That I read gave me cancer here,So many False statements.

The balance right now quite interesting. There is a choise with every region. By having high population you need better Santatation like Paris or Costantinople with -8 Sanitation and on low population Regions like in Moldavia and Riga with Positive Sanitation you barely need it until the late game.
Religion and Public order management has to be in and if they arent the Hole Game is just Bum Rush the Campaign in 10 Turns like in Medieval 2 with the Turks on a Jihad where the hole City management is so barebones in management (where you develope 1-5 towns and the other 30 you dont want to even watch them over) and its totaly reta rded. Right now the Population in MK1212 is doing Wonders and its even better than the Medieval 2 right now where there was only 1 population. In Mk1212 there are 4-5 and its so much better.

BTW Converting regions to your religion should take at least 20 Turns to be meaningful and if isnt why add religions to the hole mod whatever.

In Total
1.Main Building - All 3 Chains are Viable

2.Sanitation - depends on the Region and its population

3.Public Order - church and monastery,you will also get religion conversion and Food ,but if is high and dont have problems with Sanitation try tavern for agents.Also Military Ports and Garnisons are storng as well.

4.Religion - Religious Main Building, Church,Monastery or any other City Square buildings chain where it gives you State Religion ,you will also get Food and wine ,but if is high and dont have problems with Religion you can skip it for example in Western and Central Europe.Even the Jewish Quarters or a Crusader Bank are Quite strong where you mix it up with a Religous Building and Got 2% Intrest Rates.

5.Food - depends on fertility,pick highest yield or go for the funds increased.All are Viable. Food Resources are even Better. Ports are Fine until MK 1212 adds Naval Combat and will shake the Meta somewhat.

6.Main Trading Building and the City Square buildings chain and the Water mill are recomended in each city.Pick what you like and what are the problems for the city.

7.The Military Buildings and the Main Military Building chains are Fine as of right now. they are final choice you will be making like Do I need to recruit new units here or not.

In the end only 1-3 Building chains arent that strong overall and Lets not Forget that there are the Small Ice Age and the Black Death events in the 14th Century that makes the Player adapt midgame - something that is Positive in Gameplay.

[Archaist]

What you build depends on who you play as. For example if you play as a catholic focus less on public order and grab all the sannitation you can since you cheese out papal favor by beating up rebels and releasing captives. Do that 5 times and you get +10 public order bonus from presence of catholics.

For the Empire of Nicea who I've been playing alot of lately what you build depends on where the city is what resources it has and weither or not the fertility is high. Assuming high fertility and no religious problems I max out aqueducts since it adds +8 sannitation to the city and to each surrounding city (when done in every city you can have between 24-56 sannitation. The aqueducts also adds +5 growth and public order when maxed at a cost of 200 per turn. Then I use a max Inn for +12 public order and for the last 3 slots they vary. If the region has high fertility I use pigs and sheep and add a maxed out butcher's guild the guild TRIPLES income from animals and adds +5 public order. For reference when I did this to Philippopolis near constantinople I raked in 14k per turn. Even after the climate change and -44% money loss to corruption I still get 8k. Also heres a few templates that might help you play Empire of Nicea

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1951386940
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1951394302
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1951390464

[Archaist]

Originally posted by FrozenmenBG:

All the posts That I read gave me cancer here,So many False statements.

The balance right now quite interesting. There is a choise with every region. By having high population you need better Santatation like Paris or Costantinople with -8 Sanitation and on low population Regions like in Moldavia and Riga with Positive Sanitation you barely need it until the late game.
Religion and Public order management has to be in and if they arent the Hole Game is just Bum Rush the Campaign in 10 Turns like in Medieval 2 with the Turks on a Jihad where the hole City management is so barebones in management (where you develope 1-5 towns and the other 30 you dont want to even watch them over) and its totaly reta rded. Right now the Population in MK1212 is doing Wonders and its even better than the Medieval 2 right now where there was only 1 population. In Mk1212 there are 4-5 and its so much better.

BTW Converting regions to your religion should take at least 20 Turns to be meaningful and if isnt why add religions to the hole mod whatever.

True, I'm currently playing as the Byzantines and invading the middle east is damn nightmare because of religion. However it makes sense, and is mostly fair since I can just spam out osmosis buildings and priests to speed things along. That said "speeding things along" with 3 priests in one place will still take 20+ turns so it forces me to attack, then fortify for a bunch of turns letting the ai launch counter attacks before I can ungarrison the city and attack again.

[FrozenmenBG]

Updaded the post above - just to let you know. Osmosis right now is a Orthodox religion Mechanic.My Proposal to the Devs is to add it to other religions as well

[Archaist]

Originally posted by FrozenmenBG:

Updaded the post above - just to let you know. Osmosis right now is a Orthodox religion Mechanic.My Proposal to the Devs is to add it to other religions as well

Thats a good point, I havn't played enough catholic factions to reach a point where I needed mass conversion but I can see how the lack of osmosis would be a severe handicap as with Orthodoxy you can use osmosis to cripple the ai's public order and lay the groundwork for a later seige. Not to mention the fact that having the middle east spammed up with osmosis can actually give more Orthodox influence per city than building a Orthodox Patriarchal seat in every city (yes that's an option and it annoys me too).

[rui.silva.incp]

Gentlemen,

I am complaining that I have to build the same thing for each province. So there is no change.
Not that I cant figure out what works ;)

Example:
Play with Portugal, you get 3 provinces with 4 slots each (includes main city one)
. You need religion very fast because of Iberian Peninsula. Church in an absolute need. There is no way you survive without church. Even more so because you will have 1 priest for some time. So Church it is. Churches give nice public order but are expensive to maintain. Could be you need to keep them at level 2 for a very long time. Be very careful where and when to build level 3 or 4.
. You need sanitation, fastest way is through the leper building which gives a bit sanitation. Additional sanitation comes from the main city if you build it as city. Which you should absolutely because its your main avenue for some economy. Good luck having economy if you do not build the main city as city. But still, it will be necessary to have the leper building first just because its faster and you will need it to support a farm or a fishing port.
. You need food. Considering you have rich fertile provinces you need to go with Farm up to Wheat Field and go on. Lisbon you go with fishing port instead because its there and its enough.

Ok ;)
I have 2 brain cells to look at the data.

I just feel very constrained to do this for all my 3 provinces. Which leaves me tied for a very long couple hours. It takes time till I can get a city developed to the point where money starts to flow. The churches are expensive to maintain. The farms do not bring much money. The only money source will be the main city till I can unlock the 5th slot. Then, yes, there will be more options.

But this basically means its impossible to field 2 strong armies till you have all 3 provinces well developed. And if you start to conquer the peninsula, you will be clashing on different fronts. Norway seems to have a tendency to come say hi. If you declare war on Castille, you can end up with the whole spanish kingdoms against you. Plus the moors will come if they see you overly stretched.

So its very.....slow game.

Like someone else have said, this game is about growing slowly and steady till you catch the monkey.

But.....

God forbid we do not want to spend hours developing a campaign.
God forbid someone wants to just go easy, paint the map and see some cities building up.
GOD FORBID

We must be all morons :)

[FrozenmenBG]

All the things you said are all Good things.Fix the Problem then Demolish the Buildings or change to what you want to after. I dont see any problems.All what you saying are Historical problems that the leaders in that Area of Europe had.Fix them and the sky is yours.And not forget that the Almohads and Hafsids got 16 Regions in total vs your 3 Regions.

There will be a problem when you start to ignore mechanics and dont take responsibility for it.In the closed alpha was playing on Very Hard for 1 year and now I play on Legendary and I dont see problems overall.Just minor Tweaks. BTW the 6 slots per region province is 3 Months old when they changed the system btw. More than 6 slots per city is not possible. The Medieval 2 system was just spam the Building que with more and more Buildings in 1-5 regions alone and that was it.The rest of the regions were underdeveloped.

[rui.silva.incp]

Originally posted by FrozenmenBG:

All the things you said are all Good things.Fix the Problem then Demolish the Buildings or change to what you want to after. I dont see any problems.All what you saying are Historical problems that the leaders in that Area of Europe had.Fix them and the sky is yours.And not forget that the Almohads and Hafsids got 16 Regions in total vs your 3 Regions.

There will be a problem when you start to ignore mechanics and dont take responsibility for it.In the closed alpha was playing on Very Hard for 1 year and now I play on Legendary and I dont see problems overall.Just minor Tweaks. BTW the 6 slots per region province is 3 Months old when they changed the system btw. More than 6 slots per city is not possible. The Medieval 2 system was just spam the Building que with more and more Buildings in 1-5 regions alone and that was it.The rest of the regions were underdeveloped.

The good thing / bad thing is a question of opinion. You have yours, I have mine. Fair enough.

So you want a simulation of a true leadership role? I guess you never experienced one in real life. Let me tell you....its a bit different from any computer game you may imagine. The real challenge with leadership is humans, the people under you. They are all unique and all their own world. Its incredibly puzzling to realize how each one will work and how you should interact with them. And believe me, no human comes with tooltips warning you if it will give you +10 anger if you say something to them.

Those are the real life challenges :)

And let me not tell you how hard it may be to know when someone´s dog is sick and they are terrible at work because of it. Some people tell you, other do not. Some people may ask for your assistance when they know they are down. Others will just rage at you at the slightest reason. Its not a very fun game to be honest with you.

So what you say about the troubles of leaders is complete bollocks because the whole mechanics are not at all akin to real life.
Real life cities are constrained by terrain and available resources. You have none of that inside the game.
Religion is simply not a thing that you build a church and you have more public order. It would be awesome if you could just do that in real life lol

So....we are back at you consider the game mechanics good and I do not.
We are both entitled to our views and its great we can both share them.
Its pretty obvious that I would want a more silly less time consuming game and you want a deeper experience. Most likely due to how much free time both of us have in real life.

All the best :)

[Lucisd]

Just started playing this mod, do you guys mind posting your most used buildings set-ups (especially for Catholic factions, but all are welcomed)?