Romans too weak in campaign

[Brendissimo]

I know this is not a new complaint, but one of my biggest issues with the campaign experience right now is how weak the WRE and ERE are. They are usually turned into rump states with 5 or less regions by 410-415 AD, and sometimes even earlier. Meanwhile, I regularly see Celts such as the Ebdanians or Caledonians occupying huge swaths of Western Europe. It really kills the immersion.

What are your thoughts? Do you know of any mods with a low footprint which address this? I'm really not looking to download a total conversion right now.

Edit: just to be clear, this is about the AI's performance as the WRE and the ERE, not about how they perform when a player is behind the wheel.

[Lord Castellan Majorian]

there is no none total conversion that does anything about this lol

[Coldsnaps]

There should be a couple of mods that make the Romans stronger on the workshop.

[Hori]

'Low footprint'?

[ハッピーTano^^ッ]

Eastern Roman Empire is way much more easier because you have less enemies rather then the western side where you are just surrounded by germanics and your only ally thats close to you is the Franks, and maybe some wealth mods would help if you do intend on playing as the west immiedently try to get tier 2 units as soon as possible because of the huns.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Brendissimo:

I know this is not a new complaint, but one of my biggest issues with the campaign experience right now is how weak the WRE and ERE are. They are usually turned into rump states with 5 or less regions by 410-415 AD, and sometimes even earlier. Meanwhile, I regularly see Celts such as the Ebdanians or Caledonians occupying huge swaths of Western Europe. It really kills the immersion.

What are your thoughts? Do you know of any mods with a low footprint which address this? I'm really not looking to download a total conversion right now.

I don't find it immersion breaking.

Historically, the Western Empire did devolve into a collection of rump states, barbarian successor states, and territories that were (even if part of the Empire in name) settled and administered by foederati or laeti barbarians by the time you're citing.

When Romulus was deposed in 476, that was really just a formal end, and official recognition by Constantinople, of what had already been the reality for sixty years.

The WRE still existed as a state formally after Rome was sacked in 410, or the barbarians started crossing the Rhine en mass in 406, or some other marking point, but it was no longer a unitary state, nor cable of exercising its monoply, and hadn't been for some time.

There are three areas where this monoply and unity come into play that essentially define a state: tax collection, final say in legal matters, and the legally legitimate use of force.

By the early 400s, one or all of these were totally absent in many areas in the Western Empire, or couldn't be counted on consistently for more than few years at a stretch.

Sometimes it didn't really matter in real terms, even if formalities were kept up. We have evidence that Roman Britain may have kept sending tax payments to Rome, for example, long after they were isolated in 410, but if this money actually made it intact to the Imperial treasury is doubtful. One thing for certain is that the Imperial government had no effective control on what was happening militarily or administratively in Britain after 409/410: for all purposes, Roman Britain was a self governing, independent state from that time.

Roman historians such as Zosimus and Procopius make it clear that, by 409, Britian, Gaul and large parts of Iberia were either cutoff from the central Imperial government, or had decided to reject it, and threw out its representatives and admins, although these areas had Roman culture, Roman military units, Roman Law, and Roman style of local administration.

I think the emergent factions such as Gaul and Septimania help represent this historical process pretty well, at least within what you can do inside the TW formula.

[Bruno Magno]

Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:

Originally posted by Brendissimo:

I know this is not a new complaint, but one of my biggest issues with the campaign experience right now is how weak the WRE and ERE are. They are usually turned into rump states with 5 or less regions by 410-415 AD, and sometimes even earlier. Meanwhile, I regularly see Celts such as the Ebdanians or Caledonians occupying huge swaths of Western Europe. It really kills the immersion.

What are your thoughts? Do you know of any mods with a low footprint which address this? I'm really not looking to download a total conversion right now.

I don't find it immersion breaking.

Historically, the Western Empire did devolve into a collection of rump states, barbarian successor states, and territories that were (even if part of the Empire in name) settled and administered by foederati or laeti barbarians by the time you're citing.

When Romulus was deposed in 476, that was really just a formal end, and official recognition by Constantinople, of what had already been the reality for sixty years.

The WRE still existed as a state formally after Rome was sacked in 410, or the barbarians started crossing the Rhine en mass in 406, or some other marking point, but it was no longer a unitary state, nor cable of exercising its monoply, and hadn't been for some time.

There are three areas where this monoply and unity come into play that essentially define a state: tax collection, final say in legal matters, and the legally legitimate use of force.

By the early 400s, one or all of these were totally absent in many areas in the Western Empire, or couldn't be counted on consistently for more than few years at a stretch.

Sometimes it didn't really matter in real terms, even if formalities were kept up. We have evidence that Roman Britain may have kept sending tax payments to Rome, for example, long after they were isolated in 410, but if this money actually made it intact to the Imperial treasury is doubtful. One thing for certain is that the Imperial government had no effective control on what was happening militarily or administratively in Britain after 409/410: for all purposes, Roman Britain was a self governing, independent state from that time.

Roman historians such as Zosimus and Procopius make it clear that, by 409, Britian, Gaul and large parts of Iberia were either cutoff from the central Imperial government, or had decided to reject it, and threw out its representatives and admins, although these areas had Roman culture, Roman military units, Roman Law, and Roman style of local administration.

I think the emergent factions such as Gaul and Septimania help represent this historical process pretty well, at least within what you can do inside the TW formula.

You, my Libertariam friend, are absolutely right. Very good text.

[Brendissimo]

Originally posted by Sabhotep:

'Low footprint'?

As in small size in GB. Too many mods try to do everything, IMO.

Originally posted by ChaoticMonki:

Eastern Roman Empire is way much more easier because you have less enemies rather then the western side where you are just surrounded by germanics and your only ally thats close to you is the Franks, and maybe some wealth mods would help if you do intend on playing as the west immiedently try to get tier 2 units as soon as possible because of the huns.

Sorry I should have specified - what I'm talking about is how the AI performs as the WRE and ERE when I am playing other factions.

Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:

I don't find it immersion breaking.
....

You make some good points regarding the WRE- my main issue there is how frequently the Celts, rather than the migrators or barbarian kingdoms, conquer the WRE.

More immersion-breaking is the fact that the ERE often collapses just as quickly, which is not historically accurate, as you are undoubtedly aware.

[Granddaddy Outlast]

Radious Mod greatly improves the strategic thinking of the ai which allows for much more variety-I've had a campaign in which ERE still controlled greece, egypt and asia minor and WRE still controlled Italy and Spain as well as the islands (Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica). Also it provides much more diversity of units so you won't only be fighting armies of just comitanensis spears

[Skaldy]

Some people just wont understand how diplomacy works in this game. As WRE you have to pit barbarians against each other. For example Caledonians and Ebdanians can be paid to attack Jutes or Saxons. Meanwhile you can use Suebs and almost any migrator faction to attack someone else. This gives you enough time to build and replenish legions, build infrastructure and put quadians on your leash.

Just wait till Atilla arrives after that

P.S: Dont forget to get rid of churches because paganism rocks. Also getting rid of church=money

[Brendissimo]

Originally posted by Skaldy:

Some people just wont understand how diplomacy works in this game. As WRE you have to pit barbarians against each other. For example Caledonians and Ebdanians can be paid to attack Jutes or Saxons. Meanwhile you can use Suebs and almost any migrator faction to attack someone else. This gives you enough time to build and replenish legions, build infrastructure and put quadians on your leash.

Just wait till Atilla arrives after that

P.S: Dont forget to get rid of churches because paganism rocks. Also getting rid of church=money

If it wasn't clear from my original post or the one right above yours, I'm not saying that Roman units need to be buffed because I'm having a hard time playing as them in the campaign. After all, the player can make any faction hugely successful, and this game just really isn't all that difficult.

What I'm saying is that the AI underperforms as the WRE and ERE to such an extent that it breaks the immersion for me when I am playing as other factions. I understand that the WRE really started to fall apart in the early 400s CE, but there's basically a 0% chance of the WRE surviving with anything more than 1-3 provinces until 460 CE or later, let alone having its historical borders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire#/media/File:Roman_Empire_under_Majorian_(460_CE).png).

Even more egregious is the fact that the ERE often falls apart too, although not as drastically. The game should be balanced so that the ERE is more durable and will usually survive as a major power without the player's intervention.

[Brendissimo]

Originally posted by nothing:

Radious Mod greatly improves the strategic thinking of the ai which allows for much more variety-I've had a campaign in which ERE still controlled greece, egypt and asia minor and WRE still controlled Italy and Spain as well as the islands (Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica). Also it provides much more diversity of units so you won't only be fighting armies of just comitanensis spears

I appreciate the suggestion but isn't that mod a total conversion? I'm just hesitant to install anything that takes up a ton of hard drive space or changes too many game mechanics.

[Skaldy]

Originally posted by Brendissimo:

Originally posted by Skaldy:

Some people just wont understand how diplomacy works in this game. As WRE you have to pit barbarians against each other. For example Caledonians and Ebdanians can be paid to attack Jutes or Saxons. Meanwhile you can use Suebs and almost any migrator faction to attack someone else. This gives you enough time to build and replenish legions, build infrastructure and put quadians on your leash.

Just wait till Atilla arrives after that

P.S: Dont forget to get rid of churches because paganism rocks. Also getting rid of church=money

If it wasn't clear from my original post or the one right above yours, I'm not saying that Roman units need to be buffed because I'm having a hard time playing as them in the campaign. After all, the player can make any faction hugely successful, and this game just really isn't all that difficult.

What I'm saying is that the AI underperforms as the WRE and ERE to such an extent that it breaks the immersion for me when I am playing as other factions. I understand that the WRE really started to fall apart in the early 400s CE, but there's basically a 0% chance of the WRE surviving with anything more than 1-3 provinces until 460 CE or later, let alone having its historical borders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire#/media/File:Roman_Empire_under_Majorian_(460_CE).png).

Even more egregious is the fact that the ERE often falls apart too, although not as drastically. The game should be balanced so that the ERE is more durable and will usually survive as a major power without the player's intervention.

No Roman units dont need any buff. You are really making alternate history with the game and you gotta use whatever means. Levies are useful so use them, first upgrades of spear and cohor infantry can hold defensive battles on their own(if you given the settlements garrion buildings).(i know because i have beaten 5000+ armies with 1000 men during defensive settlement battles)

rest is diplomacy and politics overall. After Atilla is gone you can go offensive. Just dont expect huge offensive campaigns from Romans untill Attilla is gone and map stabilizes.

[Hori]

Originally posted by Skaldy:

Originally posted by Brendissimo:

If it wasn't clear from my original post or the one right above yours, I'm not saying that Roman units need to be buffed because I'm having a hard time playing as them in the campaign. After all, the player can make any faction hugely successful, and this game just really isn't all that difficult.

What I'm saying is that the AI underperforms as the WRE and ERE to such an extent that it breaks the immersion for me when I am playing as other factions. I understand that the WRE really started to fall apart in the early 400s CE, but there's basically a 0% chance of the WRE surviving with anything more than 1-3 provinces until 460 CE or later, let alone having its historical borders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire#/media/File:Roman_Empire_under_Majorian_(460_CE).png).

Even more egregious is the fact that the ERE often falls apart too, although not as drastically. The game should be balanced so that the ERE is more durable and will usually survive as a major power without the player's intervention.

No Roman units dont need any buff. You are really making alternate history with the game and you gotta use whatever means. Levies are useful so use them, first upgrades of spear and cohor infantry can hold defensive battles on their own(if you given the settlements garrion buildings).(i know because i have beaten 5000+ armies with 1000 men during defensive settlement battles)

rest is diplomacy and politics overall. After Atilla is gone you can go offensive. Just dont expect huge offensive campaigns from Romans untill Attilla is gone and map stabilizes.

You seemingly still don't understand the point. The problem is not surviving as the Empire. The problem is that it doesn't survive when controlled by the AI.

[Skaldy]

Originally posted by Sabhotep:

Originally posted by Skaldy:

No Roman units dont need any buff. You are really making alternate history with the game and you gotta use whatever means. Levies are useful so use them, first upgrades of spear and cohor infantry can hold defensive battles on their own(if you given the settlements garrion buildings).(i know because i have beaten 5000+ armies with 1000 men during defensive settlement battles)

rest is diplomacy and politics overall. After Atilla is gone you can go offensive. Just dont expect huge offensive campaigns from Romans untill Attilla is gone and map stabilizes.

You seemingly still don't understand the point. The problem is not surviving as the Empire. The problem is that it doesn't survive when controlled by the AI.

You dont seem to understand the problem. Most AI factions wont survive. Because AI is something TW series cant handle. Buffing Roman units wont change AI's poor choices

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Brendissimo:

Originally posted by Skaldy:

Some people just wont understand how diplomacy works in this game. As WRE you have to pit barbarians against each other. For example Caledonians and Ebdanians can be paid to attack Jutes or Saxons. Meanwhile you can use Suebs and almost any migrator faction to attack someone else. This gives you enough time to build and replenish legions, build infrastructure and put quadians on your leash.

Just wait till Atilla arrives after that

P.S: Dont forget to get rid of churches because paganism rocks. Also getting rid of church=money

If it wasn't clear from my original post or the one right above yours, I'm not saying that Roman units need to be buffed because I'm having a hard time playing as them in the campaign. After all, the player can make any faction hugely successful, and this game just really isn't all that difficult.

What I'm saying is that the AI underperforms as the WRE and ERE to such an extent that it breaks the immersion for me when I am playing as other factions. I understand that the WRE really started to fall apart in the early 400s CE, but there's basically a 0% chance of the WRE surviving with anything more than 1-3 provinces until 460 CE or later, let alone having its historical borders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire#/media/File:Roman_Empire_under_Majorian_(460_CE).png).

Even more egregious is the fact that the ERE often falls apart too, although not as drastically. The game should be balanced so that the ERE is more durable and will usually survive as a major power without the player's intervention.

I can't get your link to work, so I'm not sure what the map your referencing looks like, but if you look at this:

https://sites.google.com/site/centurionsdaughter/_/rsrc/1347304875123/a-world-in-transition/rome-s-last-war/616px-MajorianEmpire.png.1347304874941.png?height=310&width=320

Edit: This other map is very well done:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/MajorianEmpire.png

That is a nice, detailed map showing the different realms as they stood at 457, and then after Majorian reconquered large portions of these realm for the Empire.

As the map shows, the WRE was only a fraction of its former size in 457, and it was only contiguous in the Italian peninsula.

Couple of other things pertaining to the Empire under Majorian, and maps:

1)
Majorian earned fame precisely because he had reconquered lands and tried to bring them back into the Empire. The WRE did not have that size for decades before his reconquest.

It wasn't that the WRE happened to be that size and then he just presided over it, but the exact opposite: the WRE had dwindled to Italy and parts of northern Gaul, and he went out and reconquered best he could.

At his ascension, all of Iberia was ruled by Suebi, Visigoths, Alans or indpendent Hispano-Roman cities; Vandals and Alans had conquered the Mauretanian areas and Carthage and setup a kingodm that also included Sardinia, Corsica and other islands, and would start raiding all over the Med; Britain was long lost; Amorica was ruled by Britons; Aquitaine was ruled by Visigoths; the Franks ruled Frisia and parts of Belgica; Alamannic tribes ruled in Germania; Burgundians ruled remainder in Germania and into Lugdunensis; Gaul was nominally WRE but de facto a collection of independent Gallo-Roman cities and foederati, such as the Taifals.

2)
This "reconquest" was extremely fleeting. Majorian took power in 457, campaigned from 457 to 460, and by 461 Majorian was dead. Scarcely 3 years: significantly shorter time length than most U.S. Presidents sit.

That is a great example of what I meant earlier when I said that even if the WRE existed on paper, the reality was the three things that comprise a state only existed in many areas for a few years at a stretch on an inconsistent basis.

Maps that just show a shaded-in "WRE of Majorian 460 A.D." or something don't convey the reality, i.e. that it reached this size just a few months before 460, and a few months later it was over.

After Majorian was murdered, there was no continuity. The puppet that his murderers had chosen as successor was not recognized by any of Majorian's generals nor by the barbarian kings Majorian had compelled to become foederati; the Emperor in the East didn't recignize him either.

The result was the realm returned immediately back into military anarchy, with the generals and foederati all going with events as they individually saw best. So the WRE was not restored or reclaimed with Majorian or anything like that.

A good example is the Kingdom or Duchy of Soissons. As soon as word of Majorian's death reached him, the general in charge of northern Gaul went his own way, forming the rump state of Soissons, also called Domain of Syagrius, which would actually outlast the WRE itself funny enough.

3)
Territory was militarily occupied by Majorian, but this didn't mean Imperial governance functionally existed throughout the realm.

Again with the maps: all too often history texts and websites just shade an area in with whatever color represents WRE, but the political and social reality was very complex.

Major centers such as Lyon were de facto independent for years, even if the Imperial state setup in Ravenna, Milan, Rome, or Constantinople made pretenses of ruling them.

Lyon was in fact one of the areas Majorian "liberated," but not from barbarians...from what were termed bagaudae, Roman subjects who had thrown out the Imperial administrators and tax collectors and refused to serve in the legions, and governed themselves instead.

Other "WRE provinces" were ruled by foederati, such as Aquitaine under the Visigoths. On paper they answered to the Empire; in actual fact they were independent states and, significantly, the Gallo-Roman subjects in places such as Aquitaine and Septimania answered to them or were self governing, and were openly hostile to Majorian, as well as Aetius before him and earlier Imperial administrations.

Aetius had to court the various groups in Gaul to fight for Rome against Attila in 450: he wasn't able to directly order anyone in the region to do so, and it had been that way for some time.

In game terms, it means WRE wouldn't be getting revenue or troops from these areas, not outside using diplomacy with barbarian or rump state factions.

The areas Majorian reconquered did not go back to being Pax Romana style provinces, where all the barbarians just vaporized or something. Majorian simply forced the barbarian realms he defeates to assent to returning to foederati status.

So again, in game terms, this wouldn't be red colored regions with the imperial eagle banner over the city names: they'd be the Suebi, Alamanni, Visigothic, etc. factions holding all these regions with "Defensive Alliance" arrangements with the WRE faction, or Italia faction, or whatever culturally Roman faction holding the seat of the Empire and had come to terms with them, was.

PS: And then you have all of attacks going on even in "solidly WRE" territories.

For example, the city of Rome itself had been thoroughly sacked in 455, not two years before Majorian ascended.