Mysterious Latin Christian Osmosis...

[Cosamaru]

I'm trying a "Pagan restoration" run for the lulz, but even after tearing down every single Christian church in the empire, there are still several provinces with 3-5 points of Christian Osmosis. Does it fade slowly? Is it generated by provinces with the religion dominant, and not just buildings? (These are deep in my territory, e.g. France, so it's not like they're bordering a province with a church that isn't mine. Not that any other faction even *has* Latin Christian churches.)

Any ideas? Am I missing something obvious or is this an example of opaque systems...

[Lord Castellan Majorian]

some regions have bonuses to certain religion like sicily in age of charlemage has a bonus to paganism

[Delacourt '27]

It's due to your Latin neighbors if you are playing vanilla or mods that didn't change the religions. Latin's religious bonus is to provide Osmosis to all of your neighboring provinces.

[Teh_Diplomat]

You also need to contend with local traditions, essentially a constant buff (or penalty) and depending on the region it may have several religions present.

What this means is that in some regions, with multiple competing religions you may need preists to contend or combat their presence.

Furthermore, if there is say a factor of, let's say 10 points from numerous other religions, then even if you have 10 points for your chosen religion, then the maximum amount of religious control you can have is 50%.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Originally posted by Delacourt '27:

It's due to your Latin neighbors if you are playing vanilla or mods that didn't change the religions. Latin's religious bonus is to provide Osmosis to all of your neighboring provinces.

Wait, I thought Latin's buff was to provide influence in all provinces, as in all provinces you OWN.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Cosamaru:

I'm trying a "Pagan restoration" run for the lulz, but even after tearing down every single Christian church in the empire, there are still several provinces with 3-5 points of Christian Osmosis. Does it fade slowly? Is it generated by provinces with the religion dominant, and not just buildings? (These are deep in my territory, e.g. France, so it's not like they're bordering a province with a church that isn't mine. Not that any other faction even *has* Latin Christian churches.)

Any ideas? Am I missing something obvious or is this an example of opaque systems...

Teh Diplomat makes a good point about Local Traditions. That might actually be what you're mostly dealing with in your situation.

Iirc there is the mechanic for osmosis regardless of buildings. Certain religious buildings give a buff to osmosis, but they don't create the osmosis effect itself.

The significant presence of another religion in a neighboring province can cause spread by osmosis.

This ties back into what Teh Diplomat said in that you can have significant presence of a religion in a region simply from local traditions, if you don't actively counter the traditions.

[Delacourt '27]

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

Originally posted by Delacourt '27:

It's due to your Latin neighbors if you are playing vanilla or mods that didn't change the religions. Latin's religious bonus is to provide Osmosis to all of your neighboring provinces.

Wait, I thought Latin's buff was to provide influence in all provinces, as in all provinces you OWN.

The bonus is to the provinces that outside of your border. I noticed it when a lot of my neighbors converted to Latin, in Germania, and my provinces were also converting to Latin. Plus I use no Local Tradition mod, and I checked the buildings in the neighboring provinces, no Latin Osmosis buildings. Just boot up a Garamantia campaign, you will see that you have Latin Osmosis in your province.

Local Tradition and Osmosis are listed separately in the religion breakdown, so it should not apply in this situation.

[Teh_Diplomat]

For the Garamantians, they are affected due to the level 2 christian Churches in the province above you.

[Delacourt '27]

If you are playing vanilla, or mods that didn't change the bonus to buildings or religion bonus, the whole church building chain do not give Osmosis bonus.

https://www.honga.net/totalwar/attila/building.php?l=en&v=attila&f=att_fact_western_roman_empire&b=att_bld_religion_catholic_major_church_2

Another way to check is if you have TLR, check the Franks' neighbors, Visigoths and Ostrogoths, they receive the Osmosis in their border provinces, Ostrogoths also receive higher Latin Osmosis in those provinces then the rest, since they also got the Seat of Power Osmosis for all of their provinces.

[Teh_Diplomat]

Originally posted by Delacourt '27:

If you are playing vanilla, or mods that didn't change the bonus to buildings or religion bonus, the whole church building chain do not give Osmosis bonus.

https://www.honga.net/totalwar/attila/building.php?l=en&v=attila&f=att_fact_western_roman_empire&b=att_bld_religion_catholic_major_church_2

Another way to check is if you have TLR, check the Franks' neighbors, Visigoths and Ostrogoths, they receive the Osmosis in their border provinces, Ostrogoths also receive higher Latin Osmosis in those provinces then the rest, since they also got the Seat of Power Osmosis for all of their provinces.

Correct, not all churches provide the osmosis bonus. If I recall, the Latin Christian building chain has two routes: one for greater religious presence and public order, or; osmosis to hit all adjacent provinces, but lower public order, and overall religious impact.

[Delacourt '27]

Originally posted by Teh_Diplomat:

Originally posted by Delacourt '27:

If you are playing vanilla, or mods that didn't change the bonus to buildings or religion bonus, the whole church building chain do not give Osmosis bonus.

https://www.honga.net/totalwar/attila/building.php?l=en&v=attila&f=att_fact_western_roman_empire&b=att_bld_religion_catholic_major_church_2

Another way to check is if you have TLR, check the Franks' neighbors, Visigoths and Ostrogoths, they receive the Osmosis in their border provinces, Ostrogoths also receive higher Latin Osmosis in those provinces then the rest, since they also got the Seat of Power Osmosis for all of their provinces.

Correct, not all churches provide the osmosis bonus. If I recall, the Latin Christian building chain has two routes: one for greater religious presence and public order, or; osmosis to hit all adjacent provinces, but lower public order, and overall religious impact.

So, does this means this was wrong?

Originally posted by Teh_Diplomat:

For the Garamantians, they are affected due to the level 2 christian Churches in the province above you.

[Cosamaru]

I'm playing unmodded, vanilla grand campaign. The breakdown does distinguish between Osmosis and Local Tradition, it's the former that has no apparent source. Unless it's created simply by a Province being majority Latin Christian, I have no clue where it's coming from.

It's definitely not coming from a foreign realm. This is in South Western France, without churches, which only borders other Roman provinces, which themselves no longer have any Latin Christian churches. There's no foreign border for the osmosis to be crossing. (Unless you count the Suebi faffing about and raiding me.)

[Delacourt '27]

As I mentioned, it's due to the WRE, or the break aways been Latin, not from buildings. Each religion give some bonus, the Latin bonus worded like Osmosis for within your own territory, but in practice, due to coding, the Osmosis is afffecting provinces outside of your border. I realized this when I constantly getting deep Germania factions, even Rugalians, the one on the Baltic, converted to Latin. It's historically aspired, but very annoying in game if I want to stay to my original religion. So I looked around the cause, and found that it was due to Latin religious bonus. I tried to change it to affect internally, but it caused crashes. So I changed the bonus to 0, the Osmosis is gone after I did that.

[Cosamaru]

The only descriptions I can find list Latin Christianity's bonus as "Latin Christianity - +1 Religious Pressure all Provinces." Is that what you're referring to? Every LC province puts 1 religion pressure on all adjacent provinces and it's listed as Osmosis?

I've always been baffled by the lack of decent documentation and Wikis in the Total War community.

[Delacourt '27]

Yes, that is what I'm talking about. It's confusing, even in the PFM, it sounds like the Osmosis is for all your provinces. But the actual effect is that all your provinces, even when not hold all cities in a province, generate +1 Osmosis to outside of your border. Try out a new game with Garamantia or The Last Roman, if you have it, as mentioned in my previous posts, you will see the effect more clearly.

[NickNolte]

Necroing an old thread, but I just ran into this. I'm playing WRE (and Attila) for the first time and trying to convert to paganism, got lucky initially with an event that was like +10 to paganism for 3-5 turns and was able to convert, but I reset after taking research that locked out a bunch of buildings without realizing.

The event didn't happen again, so it's taking way longer to convert and then I realize most of WRE's territories have 1-5 Latin Christianity osmosis with absolutely no source. The only factions that have that religion on my map are in Africa and that is where the osmosis is lowest.

This wouldn't be a big deal except the threshold for converting is 35% and a Roman theater that consumes 50 food a turn only generates 3 paganism, it's next level only generates 5 and consumes 100 food so it's a super inefficient use of resources.

At first I thought it was a glitch, but I started a new campaign to check and there it was, all exactly the same as before and as some have also stated, WRE's churches don't even provide osmosis, and it's not listed as a regional effect anywhere.

Just thought I'd leave my two cents for others that run into this, as this was the only thread I could find that actually talks about it.