Can puppet states be freed?

[Căproi]

You can skip to the question below if you dont want to read.

Hello. Im playing Ostrogoths right now and i managed to settle in Dacia and conquer Pannonia and some other eastern provinces because i got super lucky and the huns offered me a peace after turn 1. I see the WRE being rammed hard from all sides, barbarians conquering their lands and rebellions almost everywhere (2 rebellions first turn, i think dacia and illirya) and i feel sympathetic for them and the ERE aswell (Who only have like 5 cities now in north africa and crete).

Question is: Can i free a puppet state? Since WRE is still ranked first as power even though they lost most of their legions and lands, and they are puppets of the ERE who is even weaker atm. I am hoping i dont have to fight ERE to free WRE.

Id love having both these empires as allies, helping them reclaim their lands and helping me form one of my own in the easternmost borders, also helping me defeat the huns (done that a while back and i wanna do it again)

[Mile pro Libertate]

You can free your own puppet states by using the "cancel client state" button at the diplomacy screen.

You can't free other factions' puppet states though...that would make you the suzerain and the actual suzerain a bystander 😛

I gues you could try forming a 'coalition of the willing' to legitimize your intervention upon ERE sovereignty 😆 /jk

[Zombie Lenin]

There should be a diplo option when you talk to the overlord faction in question to release their client state/satrapy. It's in Rome2, not sure about Attila tbh :)
The question is, why would they do it.

[RIP Chicken]

The only way I can think of and I'm not even sure it's possible, but.. Destroy the ERE and claim their lands, negotiate peace with the WRE, let your lands rebel and maybe? a Byzantine army will appear, let them reclaim their capital, negotiate peace, and raze all their former lands to let them recolonize them over time.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Acclaim:

The only way I can think of and I'm not even sure it's possible, but.. Destroy the ERE and claim their lands, negotiate peace with the WRE, let your lands rebel and maybe? a Byzantine army will appear, let them reclaim their capital, negotiate peace, and raze all their former lands to let them recolonize them over time.

He wants to avoid going to war with ERE though.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Zombie Lenin:

There should be a diplo option when you talk to the overlord faction in question to release their client state/satrapy. It's in Rome2, not sure about Attila tbh :)

The question is, why would they do it.

Yeah even irl this would be a hard one.

At later stages in history, states had mechanisms in international law to trade or transfer ownership of polities amongst each other, as in high level feudalism or with the Westphalian state, but a client/puppet state is still technically a sovereign state.

The "puppet master" is not technically the sovereign of the client: it's the suzerain of the client.

So in OP's case, it'd be hard to ask ERE for WRE's transfer because WRE is still sovereign. WRE recognizes ERE's suzerainty though, which whole purpose is to keep WRE from forming alliance deals on its own.

So it's kind of the best/worst of both worlds.

Just imagine Russia asking the U.S. if could take over managing Canada, or China said it wanted to protect Japan instead of the U.S. 😀

Even if U.S. rulers agreed to that, the Canadians/Japanese would be posses at both groups. It would be an overt admission that they weren't really as sovereign as everyone was pretending they were, which would be extremely....impolite 😆... and you'd have interest groups that would be angry about what they were going to lose in the process, for example Canadian national banks losing access to Fed Reserve monies and special U.S. bond terms, not to mention tariff and subsidy issues on both sides, military training space, naturalization issues, etc.

You'd have to have a sit down with the rulers of all 3 states where they agreed to a new arrangement, but you couldn't just have the U.S. agree with Russia to "hand off" Canada to Russia.

So if ERE is not protecting WRE, best OP could hope for is for WRE to see the arrangement as not worth their while and break the client state status. But if ERE is collecting fees from WRE and essentially spending nothing to get it, they probably wouldn't care to give that up.

[RIP Chicken]

Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:

So if ERE is not protecting WRE, best OP could hope for is for WRE to see the arrangement as not worth their while and break the client state status. But if ERE is collecting fees from WRE and essentially spending nothing to get it, they probably wouldn't care to give that up.

Isn't that the very first step to see if you can break up a client-state relationship...? Ask them if they will? If it were that easy he wouldn't have had to post this in the first place.

Originally posted by Acclaim:

The only way I can think of and I'm not even sure it's possible, but.. Destroy the ERE and claim their lands, negotiate peace with the WRE, let your lands rebel and maybe? a Byzantine army will appear, let them reclaim their capital, negotiate peace, and raze all their former lands to let them recolonize them over time.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Acclaim:

Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:

So if ERE is not protecting WRE, best OP could hope for is for WRE to see the arrangement as not worth their while and break the client state status. But if ERE is collecting fees from WRE and essentially spending nothing to get it, they probably wouldn't care to give that up.

Isn't that the very first step to see if you can break up a client-state relationship...? Ask them if they will? If it were that easy he wouldn't have had to post this in the first place.

Originally posted by Acclaim:

The only way I can think of and I'm not even sure it's possible, but.. Destroy the ERE and claim their lands, negotiate peace with the WRE, let your lands rebel and maybe? a Byzantine army will appear, let them reclaim their capital, negotiate peace, and raze all their former lands to let them recolonize them over time.

I'm saying his best bet is that WRE will declare against ERE.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Or he should just ally with ERE.

That way he can help WRE and ERE out, as in OP, or at least avoid souring relations with ERE by moving his armies around WRE territory.

If WRE gets eliminated in the process by barbarians or something he could just resurrect WRE and then make them his client.

[Căproi]

Well here's the thing. Plan was to get WRE on my side and kill Illyria's and rebel armies in the field before taking settlements in pannonia and the one next to it offering me sea routes for trade with WRE and ERE. ERE hates me because in order to stabilise my precarious position i made peace with rebels, barbarians and split factions (namely dacia and macedon).

New idea now: Take northern italy, especially ravenna for the balistarii and for some roman cav (i like scout equites for fighting huns) But that means id go to war with ERE too which solidified its position in egypt, most of northern africa crete and cyprus, and are fielding 8-9 full armies of elite tier 3 units and are keen on taking back greece while avoiding the sassanids. They already have a foothold in southhern greece with about 4 armies there and cut through macedons armies like nothing, while i now have huns raiding in my lands and that means they might soon attack.

If i dont get those settlements my campaign is over, ill have nowhere to retreat to, a crippled economy and hunnic death stax will either rip my armies in the field or raid till i lose vs rebels if i stay garrisoned. My only non roman allies are extinct so i cant call anyone for help.

I do however have a large amount of gold so maybe i could pay off ERE to release WRE?

[IGX]

Originally posted by Cappa:

You can skip to the question below if you dont want to read.

Hello. Im playing Ostrogoths right now and i managed to settle in Dacia and conquer Pannonia and some other eastern provinces because i got super lucky and the huns offered me a peace after turn 1. I see the WRE being rammed hard from all sides, barbarians conquering their lands and rebellions almost everywhere (2 rebellions first turn, i think dacia and illirya) and i feel sympathetic for them and the ERE aswell (Who only have like 5 cities now in north africa and crete).

Question is: Can i free a puppet state? Since WRE is still ranked first as power even though they lost most of their legions and lands, and they are puppets of the ERE who is even weaker atm. I am hoping i dont have to fight ERE to free WRE.

Id love having both these empires as allies, helping them reclaim their lands and helping me form one of my own in the easternmost borders, also helping me defeat the huns (done that a while back and i wanna do it again)

You can ask the controlling faction to free the state although this is less likely. If you defeat the controlling faction then the puppet state will become independant. Don't be friendly. This is war.

You're approaching the game the wrong way. Even if you somehow gain some kind of glorious treaty with the Romans, the huns can and will aim for Illria and Thrace. Your best bet is to make war with the Roman Empire and then take there lands only after the Eastern Romans are at war with the Sassanids to distract them long enough for you to take or raze uprotected cities.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by IGX05:

Originally posted by Cappa:

You can skip to the question below if you dont want to read.

Hello. Im playing Ostrogoths right now and i managed to settle in Dacia and conquer Pannonia and some other eastern provinces because i got super lucky and the huns offered me a peace after turn 1. I see the WRE being rammed hard from all sides, barbarians conquering their lands and rebellions almost everywhere (2 rebellions first turn, i think dacia and illirya) and i feel sympathetic for them and the ERE aswell (Who only have like 5 cities now in north africa and crete).

Question is: Can i free a puppet state? Since WRE is still ranked first as power even though they lost most of their legions and lands, and they are puppets of the ERE who is even weaker atm. I am hoping i dont have to fight ERE to free WRE.

Id love having both these empires as allies, helping them reclaim their lands and helping me form one of my own in the easternmost borders, also helping me defeat the huns (done that a while back and i wanna do it again)

You can ask the controlling faction to free the state although this is less likely. If you defeat the controlling faction then the puppet state will become independant. Don't be friendly. This is war.

You're approaching the game the wrong way. Even if you somehow gain some kind of glorious treaty with the Romans, the huns can and will aim for Illria and Thrace. Your best bet is to make war with the Roman Empire and then take there lands only after the Eastern Romans are at war with the Sassanids to distract them long enough for you to take or raze uprotected cities.

Sound advice ^

As he says, you probably would be better off being more Machiavellian.

Let ERE wither on the vine and then take them and WRE out yourself.