Rapier (2d4, not light) vs Scimitar (1d6, light), why the change?

[Blerrger19]

TL;DR I want to power-game without making sacrifices for asthetic reasons. Yes, I want my cake and eat it too. Yes, I want to make derpy Drzz't clones. Waahhh wahhh waahhh

Why is a rapier not a light weapon? And why does it do 2d4 damage? Feels like a lot for a rapier.
Why is a scimitar a light weapon? And why does it only do 1d6 damage? A scimitar is basically a finessable longsword. Always has been. Why change it now?

Compare a real life rapier to a scimitar. One is a long, thin thrusting sword with a sharp, pointed tip and no sharpened edge--very light--the other is a broad sharp-edged weapon that's so heavy its almost used more for crushing than slashing. D&D classically leans towards realism, at least for weapon and combat mechanics.

In the game, the rapier classically flaunts a high crit range with middling damage to represent it can normally inflict moderate harm and can be lethal with precise thrusts, while the scimitar consistently does above average damage and is essentially your finesseable longsword. I think scimitar may also have a high crit range, but the only explanation for that I can come up with is...because scimitars are cool...?

Dual-wielding scimitars made little sense before (since they weren't light it kind of mucks up two-weapon fighting) and makes even less sense now as there are obviously superior main-hand weapons (i.e. rapier)...which I feel is a pretty important point (at least mechanically) considering Rage of Demons has a bit of focus on a certain drow...

Dr. Drizzy may as well be toting dual-rapiers except that'd be plain silly. Anyone remember doing that in DDO? Cuz I sure do. Swoosh, double-slash, swoosh, isn't a rapier a piercing weapon hurr durr? shouldn't I be poking? Hurrr durrr, double-poking? Hurrrr durrrr

Just a whiny no-skill casual complaining about nothing over here don't mind me....

[Rexie77]

Rapiers have an edge, an epee does not. Learn swords before you rant, please.

[robomagon]

Rapiers aren't light and shouldn't be. They are however, finesse weapons. I do agree that scimitars should be neither light nor finesse weapons though. They clearly made them light for one reason and one reason only.

[Blerrger19]

Originally posted by rswag:

Rapiers have an edge, an epee does not. Learn swords before you rant, please.

Then the "pointy swords" in this game should be called epee since they are clearly not an edged weapon.

Originally posted by robomagon:

Rapiers aren't light and shouldn't be. They are however, finesse weapons. I do agree that scimitars should be neither light nor finesse weapons though. They clearly made them light for one reason and one reason only.

Rapiers are most definitely light(er than other swords), and I never said scimitars shouldn't be finesse weapons? They definitely should be finesseable, but shouldn't be considered light.
And that reason being...? Why, so you can dual-wield them? Uh, ok...except...everything I said in OP.

To reiterate there is NO REASON (other than asthetics) why you should use a light weapon in your main hand. If two-weapon fighting, your mainhand should be a full-sized weapon and your offhand should be a light weapon. Why use a 1d6 light weapon in your mainhand when you could be using a 2d4 weapon?

[robomagon]

Originally posted by Blerrger19:

Originally posted by rswag:

Rapiers have an edge, an epee does not. Learn swords before you rant, please.

Then the "pointy swords" in this game should be called epee since they are clearly not an edged weapon.

Originally posted by robomagon:

Rapiers aren't light and shouldn't be. They are however, finesse weapons. I do agree that scimitars should be neither light nor finesse weapons though. They clearly made them light for one reason and one reason only.

Rapiers are most definitely light(er than other swords), and I never said scimitars shouldn't be finesse weapons? They definitely should be finesseable, but shouldn't be considered light.
And that reason being...? Why, so you can dual-wield them? Uh, ok...except...everything I said in OP.

To reiterate there is NO REASON (other than asthetics) why you should use a light weapon in your main hand. If two-weapon fighting, your mainhand should be a full-sized weapon and your offhand should be a light weapon. Why use a 1d6 light weapon in your mainhand when you could be using a 2d4 weapon?

Well when weapon focus and spec were things there was a reason to have a light weapon in your main hand. And you might be thinking of belly dancing scimitars, because actual scimitars made for combat should not be finessable.

[Blerrger19]

Agreed, ACTUAL scimitars should not be but seeing as how this is D&D (and while I did say that D&D usually favors realism when it comes to weapons and combat, its still a game) they can flub a few things.

And ahhh, yes, weapon focus and spec...because everyone who dual-wields is obviously a fighter....

[robomagon]

Originally posted by Blerrger19:

Agreed, ACTUAL scimitars should not be but seeing as how this is D&D (and while I did say that D&D usually favors realism when it comes to weapons and combat, its still a game) they can flub a few things.

And ahhh, yes, weapon focus and spec...because everyone who dual-wields is obviously a fighter....

Considering the AB penalty for it, they probably should be.

[Blerrger19]

What? -2/-2? Pffffffrrrtttt, hee hee hee you are too funny.
I can create a level 1 character with 18 dex. A level 8 character with 22. Easily. That more than makes up for the puny penalty, not to mention any weapon enhancement bonuses, buffs (bless is +1), or *GASP* if I'm a ROGUE and want my sneak attacks then I had better be FLANKING and OMGGUESSWAHT flanking bonus is... *drumroll* +2!!

At bare minimum, that's a cumulative bonus of +6 (+6 dex and +2 flanking with a -2 penalty). Assuming I have any weapon enhancement or buffs that's at least another +2 (bless and +1 enhancement) so back up to +8. Not including BAB, which for a level 8 rogue should be +6
All together that's +14 on my attack rolls. OMGWTFBBQROLF

Level 8 Fighter has +8 BAB and weapon focus so that's a difference of 3? Wait I'm forgetting weapon training. Difference of 4. Big deal, ya nah.

*whisper*...Except Rogue can also pick up weapon focus...*whisper*

[robomagon]

Originally posted by Blerrger19:

What? -2/-2? Pffffffrrrtttt, hee hee hee you are too funny.
I can create a level 1 character with 18 dex. A level 8 character with 22. Easily. That more than makes up for the puny penalty, not to mention any weapon enhancement bonuses, buffs (bless is +1), or *GASP* if I'm a ROGUE and want my sneak attacks then I had better be FLANKING and OMGGUESSWAHT flanking bonus is... *drumroll* +2!!

OMGBBQWTFROLF

it's hard to "make up for", since a DW fighter would also be starting with 18 in the relevant stat. He'd also have enough feats to afford using a bigger weapon in his main hand. Plus weapon focus and greater weapon focus. As a pure rogue I almost never marry any one type of weapon, so DWing usually makes even less sense for me at least. With the natural stat cap of 20 you're not going to have 22 dex at level 8 without magical aid, which the fighter would also get. There's really very few reasons I can think of for any melee build to not have at least 4 levels of fighter mixed in. Favored classes aren't that hard to work around.

[Blerrger19]

I was talking PnP so no stat cap there...also I was assuming all factors that can be will be the same. Assume samey stuff is the same. And if you're TWF then you're probably gonna settle for Shortswords anyway...unless you want more feat tax, which is crazy.

Greater weapon focus and greater weapon training definitely make a difference though, I will admit.

[robomagon]

Originally posted by Blerrger19:

I was talking PnP so no stat cap there...also I was assuming all factors that can be will be the same. Assume samey stuff is the same.

I don't have the 5E rulebook with me, but I'm pretty sure there's a soft cap at 20 in PnP...

[Blerrger19]

Originally posted by robomagon:

Originally posted by Blerrger19:

I was talking PnP so no stat cap there...also I was assuming all factors that can be will be the same. Assume samey stuff is the same.

I don't have the 5E rulebook with me, but I'm pretty sure there's a soft cap at 20 in PnP...

What?! who's talking 5E??? That's for children xD I was talking 3rd/3.5...well, Pathfinder actually

[robomagon]

Originally posted by Blerrger19:

And if you're TWF then you're probably gonna settle for Shortswords anyway...unless you want more feat tax, which is crazy.

Greater weapon focus and greater weapon training definitely make a difference though, I will admit.

Well, that's what fighters are for. More feats to pay the feat tax, or just marrying a medium weapon and paying the extra AB penalty with brute force.

[Effusion]

Originally posted by Blerrger19:

Compare a real life rapier to a scimitar. One is a long, thin thrusting sword with a sharp, pointed tip and no sharpened edge--very light--the other is a broad sharp-edged weapon that's so heavy its almost used more for crushing than slashing.

Rapiers are not light. This is a popular misconception that likely arose due to confusion with the small sword, the 18th century european dueling weapon. Like most 1h swords rapiers tend to weigh between 2-3 lbs.
Scimitars, which can refer to a lot of different types of swords, are mostly thin curved swords similar to sabres.

For the most part, if a sword looks clumsy it's probably decorative or ceremonial (coronations, executions, etc) rather than a combat weapon.

[Blerrger19]

2-3lbs isn't light? Granted, 1lb feels like it weighs a ton when held at arms length or worse swung around for a couple of minutes, but there are much heavier 1h swords.
Perhaps light-er is the proper terminology to use?

[Effusion]

Originally posted by Blerrger19:

2-3lbs isn't light? Granted, 1lb feels like it weighs a ton when held at arms length or worse swung around for a couple of minutes, but there are much heavier 1h swords.

2-3 lbs is the standard for 1h weapons because that's about what a person can use without getting tired very quickly.

Originally posted by Blerrger19:

Perhaps light-er is the proper terminology to use?

Lighter than what though? Heavier swords are mostly intended to be used in 2h.