How do you feel about Kobolds becoming lizards?

[WorkingLikeADog]

Clearly in the first monster manual they were dogs. Dwarves refered to them as dogs. Gnomes called them dogs. However, someone got drunk and said that the scale armor was their skin?

There are many different types of lizard people. We don't need another one. Where did the dog people go?

[MoNKeZi]

I don't care what they did in 3rd edition. Kobolds will always be little yap-yap dog-men with rat tails, tiny horns and hairless scaly skin.

They always had scaly skin though. Then third edition came around and they evolved into some descended dragonkin race with scales.

The Kobolds in World of Warcraft have more in common with old school Kobolds than any current edition.

[WorkingLikeADog]

Superman had tights. Because, it was easy to draw.

That image with the kobold with the sword and shield. He went off to fight naked? No they drew scale mail on him. You can clearly see the breaks in the hood, and the feet. Where he is bearfoot with doggie paws.

[Rexie77]

Teensy dog men, aye! Like terriers a bit, so there's rat AND dog, maybe? No lizard, though. Someone just didn't know what they were (scales threw them), and the rest is D&D history.

http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/pics/jeffdee/koboldfun.jpg

More Jeff Dee art:

http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/art_jdee.html

[WorkingLikeADog]

So was it 1993 when another company bought them?

[WorkingLikeADog]

I found even Wikipedia even agreed that they changed them.

Wiki - In the tabletop roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons, Kobolds are a race of humanoid reptilians, related to dragons (although originally more dog-like) who live in caves and underground dungeons, are expert miners, and are masters of setting traps to kill adventurers.

World of Warcraft has them as rat-like.

Germans just agreed they were small miscevious could appear as any animal or even children that died too early. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumuckl#/media/File:Pumucklbrunnen_ORA2.jpg

[Rexie77]

Try this:

http://koboldsatemybaby.com/

[WorkingLikeADog]

I think the above is keeping in the spirit of small miscivious.

I'd like to know who turned them into Lizards? This seems to be coming from another culture because lizard is not British, German, or even US, and I don't know that the purpose was.

[MoNKeZi]

Originally posted by rswag:

Teensy dog men, aye! Like terriers a bit, so there's rat AND dog, maybe? No lizard, though. Someone just didn't know what they were (scales threw them), and the rest is D&D history.

http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/pics/jeffdee/koboldfun.jpg

More Jeff Dee art:

http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/art_jdee.html

Thanks for posting this. I had no idea JeffDee had a website with all his stuff on it. I love the old classic module art style.

[WorkingLikeADog]

Credit to the artists, always.

[WorkingLikeADog]

p 55 "Creatures & Treasures" I.C.E. 1985 "Smaller, quicker, weaker Goblins with rudy skin and a pair of horns..."

1985 no lizard yet.

Is the turning point 1993?

[WorkingLikeADog]

It is some place after 1985. I'm gonna steal the work of a guy off the forums, so this all could be totally bogus but....

Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, 1981 (Moldvay), p.B37

"These small, evil, dog-like men usually live underground."

Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set, 1983 (Mentzer), Dungeon Masters Rulebook, p.32

"These small, evil, dog-like men usually live underground."

Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia, p.187

"These small, evil, dog-like men usually live underground in clans of 10 to 60 members."

(There are references to kobolds having yipping dog voices in the 2nd and 3rd edition monster collections, but not to the kobolds being dog-like.)

[Let's Go Brandon]

What is a miscivious/miscevious?

[WorkingLikeADog]

Time Periods:
- Pre-Gary Gygax thery were faries.
- Gary Gygax said their were dog men.
- Post Gary Gygax they are lizards.

2003 Monster Manual 3.5 Monte Cook, Jonathan Tweet, and Skip Williams say theyare lizards

Between 1985 and then are the following publications:

1989 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd edition
Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monstrous Compendium

1991 Dungeons & Dragons (5th version)
Basic Set (Black Box; levels 1–5)
Rules Cyclopedia (levels 1–36)

1993 Monstrous Manual (Replaces Monstrous Compendium)

1995 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd edition revised
Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master Guide
Player's Options
DM Options

2000 Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition (Core rulebooks)
Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual

[WorkingLikeADog]

Found a major change. TSR was bought by Wizards of the Coast 1990. This is Greg Leeds. (I think)

[WorkingLikeADog]

Found. Roger E. Moore editor of Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Magazine. He made a NPC called Meepo, cute, kobold dragon handler from the Sunless Citadel. He was a comic relief toon. :( Year 2000 he was let out of the closet. 2000 was also the year that D&D 3rd ed came out.

Found: D&D even says this on their website. OMG they already own all this research. Very adult of them. Super impressed! Take a look:
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/excerpt-kobold

For those that fear links...says..."From dog-faced pests, to their evolution into more reptilian form and draconic connections, we look forward to the further exploits of the small but fierce kobold!"

They WERE dogs. They are NOW lizards. Roger Moore is the man. Amazing.