Dueling vs Two-Weapon Fighting (using speed)

[Ansive]

Dueling:
+ 3 attack (flat +15% chance to hit)
+ 3 AC (flat -15% chance to get hit)

Two-Weapon Fighting:
+ 1 extra attack per turn at -2 attack

In Kotor characters do not get any extra attacks, they are stuck at 1 per turn. (unlike D&D where characters get + 1 attack every 5 BAB/attack).
This makes the extra attack from TWF very important since it basically doubles the number of attacks per round.
This means most characters should take TWF or Flurry (for 2 attacks per round), if not both (for 3 attacks).

Still, it gets a bit more interesting for Jedi that choose to use the Speed force power.

Master Speed:
+ 2 extra attacks per turn
+ 4 AC

So when using Speed you get 3 attacks with Dueling and 4 attacks with TWF.

Let's see what happens if two identical characters would fight each other with the feats using speed.
Let's use 10 average damage per attack and ignore automatic misses and hits.

Let's give them
- 10 attack
- 20 AC

This means they should have a 50% chance to hit each other (without any feats).
With TWF
- 3 attack at +10, 1 attack at +8 vs 23 AC
- 35% + 35% + 35% + 25% (average of 13 damage per turn)

With Dueling
- 3 attacks at +13 vs 20 AC
- 65% + 65% + 65% (average of 19.5 damage per turn)


This doesn't look too good for TWF.
Let's reduce the AC by 5 to 15. (75% normal chance to hit)

With TWF
- 3 attacks at +10. 1 attack at +8 vs 18 AC
- 60% + 60% + 60% + 50% (average of 23 damage)

With Dueling
- 3 attacks at +13 vs 15 AC
- 90% + 90% + 90% (average of 27 damage)


TWF is still behind.
Let's remove 5 more AC to 10. (100% normal chance to hit)

With TWF
- 3 attacks at +10. 1 attack at +8 vs 13 AC
- 85% + 85% + 85% + 75% (average of 33 damage)

With Dueling
- 3 attacks at +13 vs 10 AC
- 100% + 100% + 100% (average of 30 damage)

Finally, TWF is ahead. This will be even more pronounced when the chance to hit reaches 100% for TWF (33% more damage).


What about when fighting really hard to hit enemies.

Lets buff the AC to 25 (25% normal chance to hit)

With TWF
- 3 attacks at +10. 1 attack at +8 vs 28 AC
- 10% + 10% + 10% + 0% (average of 3 damage)

With Dueling
- 3 attacks at +13 vs 25 AC
- 40% + 40% + 40% (average of 12 damage)


Conclusions:
TWF will do more damage only when the chance to hit is nearly 100%. (since there won't be any missed attacks)
TWF might be better suited for Jedi Guardians since they get 5 more attack than the other classes.
When the base chance to hit is less than 85%, dueling will, on average, be better.

Dueling is great against hard to hit (and hard hitting) enemies.
TWF is like power attack - to be used against easy to dispatch enemies (will be dispatched even faster).
Then again, power attack (like dueling) applies to every attack in a round, while TWF only supplies one extra attack.

Characters that do not have access to Speed should definitely take TWF, or at least use Flurry.

Notes:
- flurry also adds another main hand attack (total of 4 with speed), favors dueling
- power attack adds 10 damage and -3 to hit for each attack, favors dueling
- critical hit extends the crit range and gives a chance to stun on each successful attack, favors TWF (more chances to stun)

Opinions?

[Traya Tyto]

I'm staying out of this one, I'm more use to KOTOR2: TSL then this game.

[__-__-__]

Very well detailed, but why does it matter as long as you can win a fight?

[Ansive]

The choice can determine the outcome of a fight.

[__-__-__]

Like I said it is very detailed but the basic goal in these sorts of games is to unbalance them in your favor.

Dueling is the safe choice, TWF is the aggressive choice.

[__-__-__]

If you would expand your perameters a bit I could give you an example of where a TWF would have the advantage in this game over the duelist, but assuming all things equal the duelist has the advantage in all situations (my example only requires two more force powers one for each person).

[Ansive]

Well, Force Breach would put TWF at an advantage.
The handy dispel.

I remember the first time I played this game, I had no idea how the D&D rules worked, 2d6 was beyond my understanding. I also didn't see the point to Dueling so I always used TWF in playthroughs.

But after having played a good deal of D&D games, 2nd and 3rd edition I now better undestand the importance of BAB, AC, DC and number of attacks.

Given the fact that the off-hand weapon does not see much action per turn, for my 4th playthrough I chose to go with Dueling and a Scoundrel for high AC. It's working out fine so far.
One death to Bendak (1 sniper shot + 1 power attack in a row = very dead scoundrel) and three to the Sigh Governor...

[__-__-__]

That kind of build gets easier after level 10, force breach is the most overpowered power in this game, force immunity (which gets dispelled by force breach) is the second, force speed is third. Most enemies don't use speed or breach in my experience.

[__-__-__]

Sorry my internet is terible and I double posted.

[Noble]

Dueling ftw

[Ma77i7yahu]

Perhaps in theory and even then only if your opponent has an insanely high defence. In actual gameplay, a two weapon fighter will demolish almost any opponent faster and more successful than one with the dueling feat (from around level 10). Why? More attacks and more punishment per successful attack. This also increases survivability as you can take on more enemies simultaneously (e.g. the terentayeks on Korriban) and reduces the damage that you sustain from the extra enemy attacks that you would otherwise be subject to using a single handed weapon.

A defence of mid twenties or even low thirties is not particularly difficult to hit even midway to two thirds through the game depending on attributes, lightsaber crystals, belts and gloves. Worst case scenario, as in Taris, you use a concussion grenade(s) against the tougher enemies and then unleash flurry attacks for a quick finish.

For me personally, I use two-weapon fighting when I get a double-bladed saber (usually on Tatooine, my first stop from Dantooine) with flurry and Force speed. It's a highly effective combination against any threat and can generally kill most enemies in a single attack later on. Obviously I get the master level of each.

[apayton95]

None of this applies if you started out with scoundrel, the sneak attack bonus applies every hit, simply do a mass stun and then finish everyone off really quick. As a consular with high WIS or CHA, few people should be able to resist your force powers, the few people who manage to resist your onslaught can then be killed with other force powers.

[Frightning_Lightning]

You're not really making a fair comparison for actual gameplay. The AC of the enemies you're fighting is the same whether you go w/ Dueling or TWF, so you should use the same AC values for both situations to compare their DPS.

What's more interesting is looking at how valuable the +3 Defense of Master Dueling is in practice, especially against the value of DPS difference between D and TWF. This depends on enemy Attack (to hit) versus your Defense value (ignore the +3 from MD), and compare that against the results from the DPS math. What you will likely find is that TWF offers better DPS unless your chance to hit gets fairly low (like <50% or so). The value of MD's defense is better the higher your overall defense already is, unless it's already high enough that you have 15% or less chance to be hit by your enemies (because in that case, at least the last +1 of its effect does nothing thanks to 5% min chance to hit; this is because if they roll a 20, they will hit you regardless of your defense value. Likewise at the other extreme, your chance to hit them can never exceed 95% because you can roll a 1 and automatically miss, regardless of how low your target's defense is).

The general takeaway, without doing the math, is that Dueling is a lower DPS, higher durability style compared to TWF. Since Dex boosts both defense and (if Dex mod>Str mod), to-hit with lightsabers, Jedi that focus Dex can get the most out of Dueling by being nearly untouchable and hitting very reliably (this also works really well with Critical threats and Crit dependent damage/effects). Moreover, combining that with effects that lower enemy defenses can make the strategy even stronger. TWF, by contrast has less synergy with Critical hits, but also benefits from debuffed enemy defenses helping to overcome any lack of to-hit due to 0/-2 or -2/-2 to-hit from TWF (and this issue is MUCH worse before you get to Master TWF, btw). At the same time, the additional attacks and the fact that Strength gives both to-hit (if Str mod not < Dex mod) and damage to lightsaber attacks means that TWF can get more out of Str focus than Dueling builds, but Str does not bolster defense like Dex does (again this shows why TWF is more DPS over tank, whereas Dueling is more tank over DPS). Flurry and Knight/Master Speed are also a bit more useful to Duelists than to TWFs because TWFs already have 2 attacks instead of 1, which means that the marginal utility of additional attacks is lower for TWFs.

[Dr. Swift]

I came across this post via Google and I'm here to clear up OP's misinformation:

• +1 attack is not 5% to hit. The % to hit is based on the enemy's AC. Hence, +3 attack is NOT 15% to hit.
• Similarly, +1 AC is not -5% to get hit.

[Ansive]

0 attack bonus vs 10 AC is 55% chance to hit (d20 roll, 11 out of 20 lead to a hit)
1 attack bonus vs 10 AC is 60% chance to hit (d20 roll, 12 out of 20 lead to a hit)
2 attack bonus vs 10 AC is 65% chance to hit (d20 roll, 13 out of 20 lead to a hit)

It's a flat 5%.
If you have a 20% change to hit a foe. With an extra 3 attack bonus you will have a 35% chance to hit.
If you have a 95% change to hit a foe. With an extra 3 attack bonus you still remain at 95%.

[delta]

Originally posted by Sesh:

That kind of build gets easier after level 10, force breach is the most overpowered power in this game, force immunity (which gets dispelled by force breach) is the second, force speed is third. Most enemies don't use speed or breach in my experience.

Never paid much attention to most of the regular dark Jedi, but I know Malak uses Force Breach on you if you stack a whole bunch of buffs on yourself. I don't remember if it's the number of buffs you use or the type...but eventually I found that if I use only Force Speed then Malak doesn't use Force Breach.