Extended Duration Force Powers -- Your Thoughts

[temps]

One of these mods here for KOTOR just increases the duration of your buffing spells so you don't have to recast them as often.

https://www.nexusmods.com/kotor/mods/1148?tab=files

I always hated having to recast buffing spells every 20 seconds, but some people think the mod is OP. I don't think it's OP really, because it doesn't change the basic mechanics of the spells or their stat changes. Just reduces the need to re-cast them so often for convenience of the user.

I mean, I always found it dumb how if I see a boss character across the room and buff up before I talk with him, by the time my conversation is done and the fight starts, the buffs have already worn off and need to be recasted...

What do you guys think?

[Dethlane]

Agreed, even uptiming just Force speed is a pain in the arse (especially if you play juggernaut-like character in armor and thus can only cast it outside combat), even though sometimes it lasts quite long somehow (wish there was a formula to it).

[Emmental]

The need to recast is part of the balancing. Using combat rounds to rebuff is the trade off compared to a character that has restrictive armour. Everytime you cast force speed, valour and armour a guy in heavy armour could have done like 3 flurry's with a double bladed lightsaber.

[Ragnarök]

Originally posted by Dave:

The need to recast is part of the balancing. Using combat rounds to rebuff is the trade off compared to a character that has restrictive armour. Everytime you cast force speed, valour and armour a guy in heavy armour could have done like 3 flurry's with a double bladed lightsaber.

Not to mention the Force Point cost of the recasts could be spent on other offensive powers. Not a big deal for Consulars, but if you're playing a Guardian it would certainly be OP.

[temps]

Originally posted by Ragnarök:

Originally posted by Dave:

The need to recast is part of the balancing. Using combat rounds to rebuff is the trade off compared to a character that has restrictive armour. Everytime you cast force speed, valour and armour a guy in heavy armour could have done like 3 flurry's with a double bladed lightsaber.

Not to mention the Force Point cost of the recasts could be spent on other offensive powers. Not a big deal for Consulars, but if you're playing a Guardian it would certainly be OP.

Guardians shouldn't really care about offensive force powers because their Wisdom & Charisma scores are often garbage (to divert attribute points to stuff that really helps them like strength, dexterity, and constitution), and they are way better at using a lightsaber than they are at using force powers anyway so even if they have some extra mana points for force powers it won't really matter in most cases because they should generally be attacking with their lightsaber instead of using force powers in the first place.

[Ragnarök]

Originally posted by temps:

Guardians shouldn't really care about offensive force powers because their Wisdom & Charisma scores are often garbage (to divert attribute points to stuff that really helps them like strength, dexterity, and constitution), and they are way better at using a lightsaber than they are at using force powers anyway so even if they have some extra mana points for force powers it won't really matter in most cases because they should generally be attacking with their lightsaber instead of using force powers in the first place.

Nah, Guardians get Force powers upon leveling for a reason. All of the Jedi classes are meant to be using them regardless of specialisation. The majority of enemies in the game are not going to be capable of resisting even the weakest of them. The only time you'll have issues is on certain bosses. The solution is to engage those bosses in melee. Regardless, Force Storm/Wave spam is always faster than melee when you're dealing with rooms full of mid-tier enemies. Removing the resource management from Guardians is OP.

[temps]

Originally posted by Ragnarök:

Originally posted by temps:

Guardians shouldn't really care about offensive force powers because their Wisdom & Charisma scores are often garbage (to divert attribute points to stuff that really helps them like strength, dexterity, and constitution), and they are way better at using a lightsaber than they are at using force powers anyway so even if they have some extra mana points for force powers it won't really matter in most cases because they should generally be attacking with their lightsaber instead of using force powers in the first place.

Regardless, Force Storm/Wave spam is always faster than melee when you're dealing with rooms full of mid-tier enemies. Removing the resource management from Guardians is OP.

If they can kill these rooms full of mid-tier enemies with force power spam they could also kill them with their lightsaber, which is what they are much better at fighting with.

If the game wants to force guardians to spend more mana to keep buffs on themselves, the game should have extended the buff spell duration while also increasing their cost in mana points to cast the spell.

[Ragnarök]

Originally posted by temps:

If they can kill these rooms full of mid-tier enemies with force power spam they could also kill them with their lightsaber, which is what they are much better at fighting with.

If the game wants to force guardians to spend more mana to keep buffs on themselves, the game should have extended the buff spell duration while also increasing their cost in mana points to cast the spell.

The point is it's faster with powers, especially Tier 3 powers. Moreover, not using offensive powers even on a class as inefficient as the Guardian would render the combat ten times more boring than it already is.

Increasing the FP cost for buffs in exchange for a longer duration might have been a solution but ultimately it's not how it is. Personally, I'd rather they just froze the timers upon entering dialogue.

[Vennek]

Fairly often for me I find that my force powers get stuck when activated and only disappear when I later zone or enter a conversation. This seems to happen most noticeably with Force Speed, which is great for cutting down time just running around from one place to another. I've noticed it with other stuff like Force Valor too though, but not with stims. It seems to have a certain chance of happening when you cast these buffs then zone right away. If it works, you should be stuck with Force Speed on until you do something like Return to the Ebon Hawk or enter a new area with a load screen or maybe enter/leave a conversation.

[Dethlane]

Originally posted by Ragnarök:

The point is it's faster with powers, especially Tier 3 powers. Moreover, not using offensive powers even on a class as inefficient as the Guardian would render the combat ten times more boring than it already is.

Not really. By the endgame (when you actually can get Force wave/storm) str-pumped guardian with upgraded 2-handed lightsaber and master Force speed kills most stuff in 2, if not 1, hits. Kinda neato jumping/dashing from one foe to another, cutting them down as they try to gun you down (especially when your companions get rekt by said fools). Also if it isn't big pack (5+ npcs), it isn't much faster to AOE them than to slice them. Not to mention that Force blasting them would empty guardian's FP pool, which takes forever to refill.

[Ragnarök]

Originally posted by Dethlane:

Not really. By the endgame (when you actually can get Force wave/storm) str-pumped guardian with upgraded 2-handed lightsaber and master Force speed kills most stuff in 2, if not 1, hits. Kinda neato jumping/dashing from one foe to another, cutting them down as they try to gun you down (especially when your companions get rekt by said fools). Also if it isn't big pack (5+ npcs), it isn't much faster to AOE them than to slice them. Not to mention that Force blasting them would empty guardian's FP pool, which takes forever to refill.

Yeah really. All of that requires time to apply buffs and Force Jump is dependent on distance. Too close and it doesn't work. Force powers do not require any of that and are always better at dealing with groups of low to mid-tier enemies. The FP pool is there to be used so I use it, jump in and wave/storm everything to death. 3-4 rounds to kill 8 enemies (depending on hp) is always faster than 8 rounds to kill 8 enemies.

[temps]

Originally posted by Ragnarök:

Originally posted by Dethlane:

Not really. By the endgame (when you actually can get Force wave/storm) str-pumped guardian with upgraded 2-handed lightsaber and master Force speed kills most stuff in 2, if not 1, hits. Kinda neato jumping/dashing from one foe to another, cutting them down as they try to gun you down (especially when your companions get rekt by said fools). Also if it isn't big pack (5+ npcs), it isn't much faster to AOE them than to slice them. Not to mention that Force blasting them would empty guardian's FP pool, which takes forever to refill.

Yeah really. All of that requires time to apply buffs and Force Jump is dependent on distance. Too close and it doesn't work. Force powers do not require any of that and are always better at dealing with groups of low to mid-tier enemies.

You keep talking about how force storm is really good vs low to mid tier enemies, and cite it as a reason that extending buff duration makes guardians OP.

But the fact is you shouldn't be having a problem with low to mid tier enemy units in the first place. Those fights are all really easy with or without force storms; so if guardians have more force points to cast some AoE spells they are only half as good at using as Consulars to begin with, it shouldn't really affect the balance of the game much anyway.

At most, Force Storm might be a slightly faster way of getting rid of a lot of weak enemies that never posed a threat to a well-built Jedi Guardian in the first place...

So the effect on game balance is negligible, and far outweighed by the convenience benefit to the player of not having to recast buffs every 20 seconds. Really, even Consulars should appreciate extended duration buffs because then they don't have to recast Force Speed all the time.

[Ragnarök]

Force Speed does more than increase run speed. It also buffs defense and doubles attacks. It's not just a matter of individual fights its the ability to bounce from room to room at reduced cost. Where once it might cost you all the FP you had to clear one room and heal, your resources would go farther. Coupled with the Guardian's ability to carve through bosses it would render the Consular class practically obsolete, with Sentinels taking their place.

The whole point of packing a room full of enemies is to whittle the player down of resources. When Bioware made the game they didn't expect all players to pick all optimal choices leveling, to find all loot and so forth. They also never intended players to be buffing every fight, and zooming around the levels. The game is easy because people playing it now know how it works, either through prior experience with D20 or just the game itself.

As an aside, the main flaw in the game's combat is having a mana pool rather than spell slots. Combat would have been far more interesting if Force Powers were limited and only refreshed after zoning or resting. Consumables, grenades and mines would suddenly have a point after leaving Taris.

Anyway, if you wanna zoom then zoom. Since you were worrying about balance, I assumed you had trouble at parts and were worried it would make them too easy. If not, then why care? The vanilla power is OP to begin with and EZ game is already EZ.

[temps]

The best argument I've thought of for extending buff duration being OP is that it would make it much easier for Guardians to buff themselves up, then put on heavy armor or something to give them a huge armor rating to make themselves pretty much invincible until the buffs wear off.

Then they could ignore DEX when character building, redirect those DEX points into STR, get a huge attack & damage bonus, while having similar armor class as a Guardian who went with lower STR so they could put some points into DEX for armor class.

But there seems like there should be a better way for the devs to stop Guardians from combining buffs and armor than inconveniencing me by making me recast all my buffs every 20 seconds.

I mean you aren't even supposed to be able to spellcast in armor in the first place in this game..

EDIT: The extended duration force powers make the mission involving the underwater base on Manaan so much better. That mission was so terrible to play on my first playthrough of KOTOR 1 because the underwater suit makes your character move SO SLOWLY its unbearable. But with extended duration Jedi speed, you have plenty of time to get everything done walking around on the Manaan ocean floor before Force Speed wears off, and it reduces the amount of time you have to waste on this extremely tedious mission by like 50%. It's awesome. Wish I had had that when I played through KOTOR 1 the first time...