Juhani's master Quatra

[floppygalleymaster]

*SPOILERS*

Ok, so i'm doing a fresh playthrough for the first time in a couple years. I'm playing with the K1 restoration mod so i'm not sure how much dialogues been augmented from vanilla.

So anyways, to the point. Juhani "falls to the darkside" because she thinks she killed her master Quatra. She finds out later (if you resist the urge to just kill her) that she didn't actually kill her master just injured her.

HOWEVER... while this may be believable at first. it is far less believable when you take into account the following:

1. everything the council were willing to do to Revan.
2. the jedi are desperate to bolster thier ranks
3. quatra is convienently dissapeared and they send juhani away on a mission that would very likely get her killed.

It's far more likely that juhani did in fact kill her master. the council lied to make her feel better. then sent her with Revan to hopefully go die fighting malak.

the only reason the councils story is believable is because we idolize the jedi and think them above lieing. we trust them. but given the truth about our player character....yeah.

[Ragnarök]

Except lying to her is pointless. She already believed that Quatra is dead and she freely chose to go before the council in repentance regardless of that. If anything, artificially softening the blow would deminish the lesson learned. Then of course there's the possibility that she would survive and ask questions.

If the Jedi wanted to strengthen Juhani they would have told her Quatra was dead either way. Force her to sink or swim under the weight of her own actions and reward her with the knowledge after the quest was over, when/if she had overcome her past.

[floppygalleymaster]

yeah but they're desperate. i don't see the jedi council being able to actually forgive her for killing her master. not to mention how vain some of them can be (vrook). losing a master jedi to the likes of juhani. how many padawan would flock to the darkside if they believed it could instantly make them as powerful as a master class jedi...now i will concede that i sound bit like carth with my paranoid schemes. i had just knowingly watched the jedi council lie to my face, and rush my training. if Quatra told juhani herself i'd believe it. but it's the fact that juhani never mentions talking to her master ever again. Quatra faked her death and dissappeared never to be heard from again...

now that said. i completely agree that if my theory were true that they should have handled it as you said Ragnarök.

it's just that sometimes the council makes the wrong choice. like when they wanted to take away meetra suriks force and doom the galaxy. or all the dumb stuff atris does.

[Ragnarök]

I just don't think a padawan striking down a master sets any new precident when the war with Exar Kun finished a mere 40 years earlier. If the dark side is made alluring by the mere mention of such events being in the realm of possibility why would other padawans not just leave the order and join the Sith? Open season to kill Jedi all the live long day. Moreover, why would they join an order that favors altruism in the first place?

If you're looking at the Jedi council you have to recognise that what they were during the Jedi Civil War was vastly different from what they became during the Sith Civil War.

For starters, Vrook only became a villian when he was written that way in K2. During K1, he was one of the two masters who were rightly skeptical of giving you access to the things that made Revan fall in the first place. He didn't think it was worth the trade if you flip-flopped back to your old ways because as bad as Malak was, at least with him at the helm the war ground to a standstill. Even once Obsidian had changed his characteristics, there was still nothing inherently unreasonable about his cynisism toward you in K1. Revan wasn't there by choice, but they needed the knowledge he had to end the war, so lying was justified.

[floppygalleymaster]

jedi are already abondoning the order and joining the sith. It's mentioned by the council as well as on korriban if i remember correctly. Also despite how recent the war with exar kun was it's not really something they teach in great detail if at all. I get the impression that anything darkside related is taboo and restricted. jedi seem to be told no more than emotions leads to the darkside.

It's also important to remember that all but a few special cases become wards of the jedi order at a very young age. there isn't much of a choice for them. the order actively seeks out force sensatives and absorbs them into thier cult-like organization.

idk vrooks a ♥♥♥♥ he's very negative and overly critical. granted psychologicly that probably reflects how he is on himself and ultimetly he is doing it out of his own concept of the greater good. but still he's a douche.

lieing to revan was necessary. you could argue that it's justified. but you could also argue that it's comparable to what malak does to bastila. both are done for they're respective greater goods.

[Ragnarök]

That's my point though. If they were motivated by power there are plenty of examples to follow already. They're allowed to leave the order whenever they wish, for whatever reason.

You're right. Vrook doesn't like Revan. Probably because Revan killed or otherwise destroyed many a person Vrook cared about. Whatever Revan's personal value and potential if redeemed, as far as Vrook is concerned, when placed on a scale Revan would still be worth less than what was taken from him. I don't blame him.

The sticking point with Revan was that he was responsible for the war. That's what justified using him to end it. That's his atonement which was preferable since imprisonment or execution are the alternatives. Bastila was just a soldier.

It may be the stuff of fanfic, but I think it would have been fun if they opted not to do the amnesia thing in KotOR, and just had Revan remain an evil bastard held prisoner by Bastila. Could have been fun to see her try and redeem him, making progress bit by bit or to try and corrupt her yourself. Could have still ended the same way really.

[floppygalleymaster]

they're raised to believe in the jedi way tho. it's not until they see the power of the darkside that theres really much allure. they're raised to believe that the light is stronger than the dark and in the middle of sith conflicts it becomes hard for the weaker willed to maintain faith in that. truth is the jedi and sith have brought eachother to the verge of extinction for the entirety of galactic history.

still it's Vrooks lack of compassion that bothers me. i can understand where he is comming from but i expect more out of a council member. i want to say he's even the head of the council but i may be mistaken. i'll google it later

taking only Kotor into account and excluding the rest of the TOR universe... then yes revan is completely to blame for the war. regardless noone would know otherwise anyway in kotor.

the amnesia stuff is good story even if it's a bit farfetch it makes a good twist. would have been interesting if bastilla was the main character. both could be character created players, male plays revan female plays bastilla. i think that the reason they went the route they did was for the pure rpg element. you can create any character you want and it fits into the story. they were still developing the game system back then also.

[smallturns]

If i'am allowed it interven here and say anything it sound like from the third take into account thing you said down you might be falling to the dark side if your indicating that the Jed were mean or something for sending Juhani on a mission that might-of killed her if she wasn't careful I mean yea the jedi who rec Revan the dark lord of the sith were probably desperate to make their numbers bigger but while I honestly didn't think that of them while playing the game don't you fall like she almost did come back to the light if so or do I need tell you the same-thing Revan told her in the grove lol nu i'am just messing with you but seriously if I recall at the end or near the end of Dantooine just before you board your ship with her as a recruit doesn't the jedi council tell Juhani that she didn't kill her she only injured Quatra if you the player chose to let Juhani live.

[floppygalleymaster]

yes the jedi council tells juhani that her masters alive. Quatra fakes her death then dissapears never to be heard from or mentioned ever again... i've never killed juhani so i'm a little curious about what happends when you do. If the master is alive or dead.

[smallturns]

Now that you made me think of it I actually don't know although I am starting to get a little curious as to how the story goes about your master if you decide to kill Juhani in the grove or if it stays the same about Quatra being injured but whether you choose to play as darkside Revan or ligthside Revan your right master Quatra has convienetly dissapeared. Now I did decide to kill Juhani once I guess just for funnest and when I got back from the grove the jedi council was sad to here that she died but also and this might just have been my impression/interpretion of them but I also felt like they were angry with me my character for killing Juhani but again I don't know if the stoy about Quatra changes or stays the same if you decide to kill Juhani or not I can't really say.

I do however have a question for you to maybe think about as i'am thinking about right now if the Jedi council were so desperate to recrut Revan to make their numbers bigger then why would they send Juhani on a mission that might-of got her killed I mean come on use your logic people doesn't the Jedi council know Revan might need all the help he she or they can get defeating Maleck I what are they thinking Maleck is somewhat tuff to beat?

[floppygalleymaster]

It's also fun to wonder if Juhani really fell to the darkside. Perhaps there never was a Jedi Master Quatra. Juhani could have been tasked by the Council to test Revan.

[Ragnarök]

The persuade mechanic will tell you the Jedi weren't lying about Juhani. Upon reporting to council if you kill her, Vandar will ask if there was nothing in Juhani that could redeem her. You have two options that are classified as "[Lie]", one of which is "She was too evil to ever come back." If you say that, you will get a confirmation that Vandar believes your lie. "[Success]" This would be marked "[Failure]" if he knew otherwise.

It's meta knowledge, but the game is telling the player that the Jedi believed there was something in Juhani that could lead to her redemption. Which means they also believe she fell to the darkside or else there could be no redemption.